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Been practicing some related Barry Harris scale > chords resolving and non-resolving voicing stuff and having fun with the simplicity of VIIo > I interaction. Can't help but notice that clarity doesn't breakdown when also using the scales melodically. I know that Barry codified a separate system of "half step rules" designed for controlling dissonance/resolution points. All good but is there a reason that these scale of chords are not also considered viable melodically or are they and I am misinformed on this via my lack of a proper thorough investigation.
Thanks.
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12-23-2021 10:49 AM
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Absolutely no reason it can't be used melodically. I think it's just habit that people usually apply it chordally. If you listen to Barry's demonstrations, he has little melodies in there, but it still sounds chordy. I practice this stuff as single note and it works great.
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Yes, suspending and resolving borrowed notes works as does moving larger melodic fragments drawn from the scales. They all function in a simple awareness of the interaction between the primary chord and a companion diminished. This continues to be the case also when playing single notes (why would it not). The internet is a dangerous place, I've heard it said (not from Barry's lips) that these scales of chords form the basis of his harmonic construct but there is a separate system of half step rules for melody.
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Check out the ‘things i learned from barry harris’ youtube channel, he covers all of this, including how to use the 8-note scales of chords for single-note lines as well.
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e.g. this one:
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Thanks Graham, I've watched some of his videos but not all.
Will give it a watch.
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It doesn't work. For me, anyway.
If you apply the scale
E F# G A B C C# D#
over the F#m7b5/B7b9 - Em7/Em6 example you can't play the C# over F#m7b5 or B7b9, sounds ridiculous. And over the Em7 - Em6 (or just Em6) you've got to watch that C natural over the Em6. It's strictly a passing note (which one would probably use in any case).
You've basically got to be able to relax with improv, not be worried myopically over each note.
I don't think we can have it both ways. That scale is either an E harmonic plus a C#, or an E melodic plus a natural C. I mean , you see the difficulty.
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Many here are in a better position than I to speak on all things Barry Harris ......
but I'll give it a go:
I believe F#m7b5 would be viewed as Am6
F# G# A B C D E F
B7b9 ???
perhaps as
B C D D# F F# G# A
or
B C D Eb F G Ab A
Em7 = Gma6
E F# G A B C D D#
Em6 = itself
E F# G A B C C# D#
For me, I fear no individual note, as you say a potential passing note or contextualized group of passing notes (an approach chord) like those present in the BH quartal pairs/scales.
So what does C# mean to me in a F#m7b5 B7b9 sequence?
First off, we have a tendency around this forum to discuss notes against chords as if they
are being played as impenetrable sustained whole notes as opposed to short chordal stabs which engender additional space for a more flexible response. So....rhythm section approach does matter.
Accompaniment aside, there is nothing wrong with a combo harmonic move from the brighter F#m7 to a darker F#m7b5 or similarly B9 to B7b9. True, the potential pitfalls of the unintended confluence of b9's is an acquired taste at best.
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Well, I tried it several times and it sounded very much like someone played the wrong bidzyq :-)
Originally Posted by bako
You'll notice on the vid at 8.48 when he plays over F#m7b5 - B7alt he doesn't use it.
He plays a diminished arp from the top C - which is what a lot of us would do anyway (I do frequently) - and a longer line that, again, is basically a diminished sound, no C# in sight.
So he's not actually using the scale that's being talked about at all... and I don't blame him.
(Of course, all this could be a deficiency on the part of the video presenter and nothing to do with Barry Harris. I'm aware of that).
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Despite the separation of the half note rules for lines and the scales of chords, of course you can use the 8 note scales for lines; it’s just not helpful to get them confused early on, and why I don’t like to use ‘bebop major’ for maj6 dim etc (I know Barry generally disliked the term ‘bebop scale’) because I think that muddies the waters between the two distinct things not to mention that the dominant scale is different. Originally Posted by bako
For instance, Allan Holdsworth had the m6-dim scale in his ‘10 useful scales’ but saw it as a melodic scale and never used it to make harmonies, so despite having the same notes in it it’s a different animal and that b6 becomes a passing tone rather than the harmonic tone Barry used it as in that context.
With all that said, there’s a lot of crossover when you get into it; the minor 6 dim is actually the default choice Barry would use on minor chords when running scale outlines.
If you run a V7-Im with Barry’s scale outlines you’ll get a phrase that is completely within the m6 dim, for example;
A7b9 —> Dm6
Bb A G F E D C# | D E F G A Bb B
The most common use of the scales (or at least what Barry described using it for at the workshops I was at) are a linear version of the basic block chord exercises you have, so you arepggiate the alternating 6th chord inversions and dim7s. This is most commonly done in close position and drop 2, and sounds really great. You can add in half steps too. Anything you can play as chords you can turn into a line. I’m sure Chris (TILFBH) has a good video but I haven’t watched that many of his vids (the ones I’ve seen have all been great) but here’s a video I did on it, I demonstrate at 13:39
No doubt there’s other uses.
Really what the half step rules tell you is how to apply 7 note scales so that they come out right; the 8 note scales obviously more ‘balance’ to them so can be used as ‘bop scales’ provided we start on the beat and on chord tones.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-24-2021 at 05:52 AM.
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But Christian, that's what most of us would do anyway!* That's harmonic minor with a nat B (m6) over the Dm at the end, exactly as we'd play it. I mean, what's the big thing here?A7b9 —> Dm6
Bb A G F E D C# | D E F G A Bb B
Sorry, I get frustrated with this stuff...
* Actually, I'm far more likely to play G mel over it, or Gm/Bbm. More modern sound, you know
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BTW If you were attending Barry’s class it would be quite clear because harmony and improvisation were always completely separate classes taught in very different ways. Nothing further needed to be said…. If you are getting this info second or third hand, the context may be less clear. Originally Posted by bako
How Barry taught may get lost a bit. But it’s as important as what he taught. The Howard Rees produced workshop DVDs are extremely helpful here for getting a general sense of this (assuming you don’t already have them.)
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Being in NYC, I have attended a few classes over the years. Most recent would have been twice perhaps 5 years ago. Many people crowding around him at the piano and but no speaking mic for him which made it hard to make out what was being said.If you are getting this info second or third hand, the context may be less clear
As you say it was formatted in 3 segments 1. piano harmony 2. vocals 3. improvisation.
So yes, chords with linear colorations in the 1st segment and melodies with harmonic implications in the 3rd. 6 pm to midnight all for something like 15$ going on for decades, pretty amazing contribution.
I used to play duo sessions with the pianist who put together the 1st introductory book on Barry's teaching to appear, although we just played music and didn't discuss that.
I find that every harmonic event has corresponding melodic manifestations. Perhaps for Barry it is the more expansive and comprehensive nature of the half step rules thing in comparison to what can be melodically extracted from his harmonic scales that he chose to approach it from that vantage point???
I am intrigued in general by note collections. Chord pairing is one interesting perspective on this. Barry's scales are structured with a simple clarity of function combining a symmetrical diminished and a resolution chord. I especially enjoy the freewheeling nature of borrowing yielding some difficult to name chords that are still functioning within the basic paradigm.
While I also have interest exploring chord pairings with more obtuse relationships, I am taking this moment to better absorb some of the possibilities of Barry's scale of chords ideas.
In theory, this can serve as a model of what I can hope to extract from more obtuse combinations and how to better organize and utilize what emerges.
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Would that have been Howard then? Originally Posted by bako
Yeah, I don’t know tbh. I don’t get the feeling there’s a massive divide down the middle of it all, but you can use all the chromatic notes to outline any chord sound you want with the more advanced applications of the half step rules; so it’s far reaching. But the bebop scales in mainstream jazz edu are like the simplest versions and still very useful.I find that every harmonic event has corresponding melodic manifestations. Perhaps for Barry it is the more expansive and comprehensive nature of the half step rules thing in comparison to what can be melodically extracted from his harmonic scales that he chose to approach it from that vantage point???
TBH some of the clearest classes for me we’re the Zoom ones he started doing in 2020, because you could hear everything; I can only hope that they have been archived somewhere. but I always learned something from his sessions… you had to go a lot I think to start to get more of a complete picture and get used to the way of it. It was never student centred pedagogy haha. And tbf I don’t think it was about a complete picture either, the sessions had an exploratory quality that I understand now I’m trying to emulate this teaching approach a little myself.
Anyway the DVDs are brilliant for that because they are like the workshops but less chaotic.
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One reason (probably not the only one) for Barry's division between harmony class and improv class was that the former was mostly for pianists (and a few brave guitarists) and the latter for horns etc -- just as the vocal class was mainly for vocalists. The harmony class dealt mostly, although not exclusively, with movement on the 8-note scales while the improv class dealt mostly, although not exclusively, with building phrases using 7-note scales. I think it was in large part a distinction for convenience rather than for fundamental theoretical reasons. So in harmony class ii-V7 might be treated as (at least) two distinct chordal movements (the ii adding "colour" to the V) while in improv class it might be a single dominant gesture.
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No, pianist Fiona Bicket. I believe her short book focus was on getting new class attendeesWould that have been Howard then?
up to speed on some of the basic concepts to shorten the period of befuddlement for them.
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ah yes I had a look at that. It’s good, a sort of BH primer/cheat sheet Originally Posted by bako
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More a pamphlet than a book but still quite useful. Available here: Approach to Improvised Lines & Harmony | barryharrisjazz Originally Posted by bako
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What year and were you in Manhattan or outer borough? Originally Posted by bako
Right, you can play 'Blue Moon' until you're...eh blue...and play x7978x on the fifth go around or lift you ring finger and play x7778x . Originally Posted by bako
Or, you can see it as x7758x with a borrowed alto note from F dim 7...and be in another world.
( Not so difficult to name but you get the idea ).
Yeah! Chord pairings excellent! Originally Posted by bako
I personally use 5x465x and 5x443x over D ( A Train ) and there's plenty of work where that came from.
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Wilson,
Born in the Bronx, high school in Queens, a few years upstate in Ulster County,
and apart from a few transitional short term Manhattan sublets long ago,
I have since lived in Brooklyn. I attended the workshops perhaps 5 times over
the length of it's long history. Most recent visits were definitely within the last
decade at the space near Lincoln Center, I'm bad at estimating time frames.
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This is the way I use it melodically. Just alternate between main arp, dim, main arp inversion, dim. I don't think it's that important to get hung up on the theory of applying the exact scale to things. You can apply it to any arp without getting all technical about what the parent scale is. There might be accidentals from the bh scale but it works for any chord. Originally Posted by bako
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