Thoughts on Improvising Over Jazz Blues, Anyone?

[James Haze]

When I think of the blues, I realize that it's one of the greatest forms of music ever. You can do so freakin' much with the blues, it's just ridiculous. We all know how many smash hit songs in all popular genres are actually just blues, variations on the blues, and influenced by blues artist's. Our beloved ii, V, I cadence itself is a variation on the blues. Essentially ALL American music came from the blues. That's a pretty big statement, but it's absolutely true. So ya, I think the blues is absolutely amazing.

[ragman1]

Thoughts on Improvising Over Jazz Blues, Anyone?

I have some thoughts on it.

First, the blues is an incredibly simple thing. Just the basic 3 chord trick which can be embellished to become the jazz blues.

Bb7 - Eb7 - Bb7 - %
Eb7 - % - Bb7 - %
F7 - % - Bb7 - F7

becomes

Bb7 - Eb7 - Bb7 - Bb7+
Eb7 - Eo - Bb7 - G7+
Cm - F7 - Bb7 - F7+

Personally, I don't like playing it too much because it gets old very quickly. The ear becomes accustomed to the same sounds and it begins to pale. So I tend to leave it for a while and then start again, so to speak.

So begin very simply, just outlining the basic sounds, the Bb7, the Eb7 and the F7.

Then maybe play Bb6 to Bbm for the Eb7. Then put an altered sound before the second Eb7. Then some altered sounds over the G7 before the Cm. Then maybe at the end. I don't tend to worry too much about the Eo although it can also be outlined. And the odd duff note doesn't matter unless it's really completely wrong.

As it's played, the ideas can become more complex but never beyond a certain point. One doesn't want to lose the essential blues feel of the total thing.

One can use arpeggios, mixolydian scales (like Ab maj over the Eb7) and so forth. And use the blues scale, of course.

I just did this. Compare, if you will, the first solo, which is the most simple, with the last at 3.28 where quite a few more outside substitutions are used. But not more than that.

One has to play it for oneself, as one feels it. I feel it's a great mistake to try straight away to emulate those professional players who rush through it with vast knowledge of what they're doing.

We can't do that, though it may come in time. It's good enough that we just play it as we feel it. Then it ceases to be imitative and, to be honest, not very good. Maybe if one has no feeling for it, or has lost the feeling due to over-exposure or over-ambitiousness, then it's probably better left till one gets the feeling back again.

[Lionelsax]

Thoughts on Improvising Over Jazz Blues, Anyone?

I have some thoughts on it.

First, the blues is an incredibly simple thing. Just the basic 3 chord trick which can be embellished to become the jazz blues.

Bb7 - Eb7 - Bb7 - %
Eb7 - % - Bb7 - %
F7 - % - Bb7 - F7

becomes

Bb7 - Eb7 - Bb7 - Bb7+
Eb7 - Eo - Bb7 - G7+
Cm - F7 - Bb7 - F7+

Personally, I don't like playing it too much because it gets old very quickly. The ear becomes accustomed to the same sounds and it begins to pale. So I tend to leave it for a while and then start again, so to speak.

So begin very simply, just outlining the basic sounds, the Bb7, the Eb7 and the F7.

Then maybe play Bb6 to Bbm for the Eb7. Then put an altered sound before the second Eb7. Then some altered sounds over the G7 before the Cm. Then maybe at the end. I don't tend to worry too much about the Eo although it can also be outlined. And the odd duff note doesn't matter unless it's really completely wrong.

As it's played, the ideas can become more complex but never beyond a certain point. One doesn't want to lose the essential blues feel of the total thing.

One can use arpeggios, mixolydian scales (like Ab maj over the Eb7) and so forth. And use the blues scale, of course.

I just did this. Compare, if you will, the first solo, which is the most simple, with the last at 3.28 where quite a few more outside substitutions are used. But not more than that.

One has to play it for oneself, as one feels it. I feel it's a great mistake to try straight away to emulate those professional players who rush through it with vast knowledge of what they're doing.

We can't do that, though it may come in time. It's good enough that we just play it as we feel it. Then it ceases to be imitative and, to be honest, not very good. Maybe if one has no feeling for it, or has lost the feeling due to over-exposure or over-ambitiousness, then it's probably better left till one gets the feeling back again.

Very nice ragman1 !
Now I understand why you didn't understand when I played a blues for you.

[Clint 55]

The bluez is a favorite of mine and a target for my practice. I tell myself that if I can't either bop the changes or at least play some simpler bluez lines like now's the time in every key, then I seriously need to practice more. It's simple enough that you can have fun playing simpler phrase like stuff but also complex enough that you can use it as a vehicle to practice more advanced lines over the changes. If you're playing lyrical bluez phrases and bopping around and hitting the changes you're doing pretty well imo.

[AlsoRan]

Ragman,
You have been a great help as I climb these steps of learning to play Jazz Blues.

A lot of is starts with the attitude, and these words by you hit home, as I don't often deeply feel the music I am trying to play. Back to the woodshed!

"One has to play it for oneself, as one feels it. I feel it's a great mistake to try straight away to emulate those professional players who rush through it with vast knowledge of what they're doing.We can't do that, though it may come in time. It's good enough that we just play it as we feel it. Then it ceases to be imitative and, to be honest, not very good. Maybe if one has no feeling for it, or has lost the feeling due to over-exposure or over-ambitiousness, then it's probably better left till one gets the feeling back again."

[Clint 55]

No practicing it?

[buduranus2]

It's one of the best blues recordings I listened to in this forum.
You play like a saxophonist.

Dude, that is the all-time highest compliment I've ever gotten or could have hoped for. Appreciate you bro!

[Lionelsax]

[Clint 55]

Also, I'm kind of a CST guy (horrors) which has been helpful in identifying note sequences to navigate through the changes.

Yes, how horrifying. Being smart about breaking things down and applying the theory can lead to pro level playing.

I was also very impressed with your clip. The things I liked and can learn from are: I liked how you in general divided it between 8th note-ish ideas for the catchier blues-ism motifs and 16th notes for lines. I thought that gave it an organized and professional sound and kept the momentum. I liked the leaps you used in your blues phrases. I liked that minor sequence cliche on the 2-5 to the 4 chord, I picked that up. I liked how you would run lines across chord changes and play key notes to identify the change. Good job, I wasn't expecting that. Gonna try to learn what I can from it.

[Lionelsax]

Dude, that is the all-time highest compliment I've ever gotten or could have hoped for. Appreciate you bro!

Yes, you really play, it's the language I like, speak and understand.
Your music speaks to me.
You are not a trick shape player, you know what you play, you can speak.
Your phrases are connected.
You really play like a saxophonist.
Before being a guitarist, you are a musician.
That's great, there is no chord, no shape, no scale (I think you understand what I mean), just music connected to what's really happening.

[Clint 55]

^ He uses shapes and scales..

[buduranus2]

Yes, how horrifying. Being smart about breaking things down and applying the theory can lead to pro level playing.

I was also very impressed with your clip. The things I liked and can learn from are: I liked how you in general divided it between 8th note-ish ideas for the catchier blues-ism motifs and 16th notes for lines. I thought that gave it an organized and professional sound and kept the momentum. I liked the leaps you used in your blues phrases. I liked that minor sequence cliche on the 2-5 to the 4 chord, I picked that up. I liked how you would run lines across chord changes and play key notes to identify the change. Good job, I wasn't expecting that. Gonna try to learn what I can from it.

Clint, you are entirely too kind and generous with your praise. I'll do my best to share what passes for my "concept" in the hope that you may find some value in my approach. To back it all the way up, when I was a youngster a lot of popular music was based on or around the blues: Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, rockabilly and all its various practitioners and, occasionaly, real unvarnished blues like Kansas City, Baby Scratch My Back and the like. So as a little boy I didn't know what anything was I just knew what I liked. Somewhat parenthetic was that my dad enjoyed jazz and I grew up (do guitar players ever grow up?) listening to Miles, Bird, Diz, Erroll Garner, Dave Brubeck and others. Also, somehow along the way I developed an affinity for swing music, which often fearured 12-bar structures (One O'Clock Jump, Woodchopper's Ball et al.) What I particularly liked about them was the "comping" by the horn sections. I still use those phrases today.

Fast forward to where I saw Albert King. Game over. I wanted to do that. Of course I went to copying (in my mind) some of his licks but I also reasoned that his style had roots in his musical antecedents. So I made a detour back in time and listend to those who may well have influenced him directly, or through osmosis: Fred McDowell, John Hurt, Son House, Mance Lipscomb, Robert Johnson, Blind Blake (should still be illegal to play that well) and others of that era. Although I wasn't interested in playing like that I swiped a couple of licks from that era that I'll throw in occasionally for my own personal entertainment. From there I spent a fair amount of time listening to T-Bone Walker, who is widely regarded as the first blues guy to throw in some jazz sensibility. (Please, no arguments about Charlie Christian.) So in a manner of speaking you could draw a line from T-Bone Walker to the clip you heard.

The impetus for the passing and color tones (aka "chromaticism") came from Bird, Monk and Miles, all great blues players and very unique. I didn't (and to this day don't) know enough music to incorporate their concepts but I can say in a certain respect it informs my playing. I'd say that when I finally got into BB King I could understand that you could take it in a jazzier direction and still keep it blues. What I got from him (even though I'm not sure I ever heard him play it) was the triplet diminished arpeggio I'm partial to. For example, in the key of G playing over the C7 in measure 6: (C) Db E G with C being the "passing tone" for want of a better term.

Over time I got to go here and there and do this and that but I still never had the courage to attempt to play jazz. So I made up my mind to spend a lot of time learning scales, modes and their application(s). The fifth mode of harmonic minor is phrygian dominant, which provides a lot of choices over the VI chord. Also, melodic minor has a couple of modes variously thought of as "jazz minor" lydian dominant and the altered scale. To be honest, I don't really get too much use out of them, save for the whole tone run, but that's just me. More knowledgeable players here have said that the modes of melodic minor weren't really used in bebop, and on closer listening I'd tend to agree. Take the A Train (a pre-bop tune) has the opportunity to use lydian dominant (typically used for secondary dominants) but folks here have said that Strayhorn was thinking whole tones and I couldn't argue with that.

At some point I got into the myriad variations of ii V7 and iii VI ii V7. There's a book I could recommend, David Baker's How to Play Bebop Vol 2, that has hundreds of examples. The funny thing is, after working my way through the book I don't think I took one example as my own. But if I ever get to play jazz with a group it'd be a handy resource to steal from.

All that aside, the clip you heard was just me being me, all the influences and "ingredients" notwithstanding. When I play "jazz blues" I strive to make my playing evocative of the organ trio era. I've listened to a lot of Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell, Willis Jackson, Wes (lest we forget) and too many others to recall at the moment. Man, I wish it was then! I think, ultimately, it's about putting across the feeling of the blues, the conversational aspect, the tonality, phrasing and vocabulary that says "blues spoken here." In other words, if you can bake a good cake you don't need a lot of frosting. Best to you!

[buduranus2]

Yes, you really play, it's the language I like, speak and understand.
Your music speaks to me.
You are not a trick shape player, you know what you play, you can speak.
Your phrases are connected.
You really play like a saxophonist.
Before being a guitarist, you are a musician.
That's great, there is no chord, no shape, no scale (I think you understand what I mean), just music connected to what's really happening.

I wish I had words to express how validating and humbling your perspectives are. Thank you again.

[Lionelsax]

@ragman1 you deleted your post, you know better than me that I am very used to playing without backing track and I mainly play vertically even if I'm completely alone, maybe you never noticed it.
I really appreciate you, you are unique.

[Lionelsax]

I wish I had words to express how validating and humbling your perspectives are. Thank you again.

No words are needed.

Humbling ? Humiliation ?
Not at all !
Did I say something wrong ?
If you didn't understand it was a compliment I am sorry for that.

[Lionelsax]

^ He uses shapes and scales..

Everyone uses shapes and scales but not a lot of guitarists, except classical and most of jazz guitarists, know what they mean.
Shapes are just there for an academic comfort but comfort is subjective.

- Hi ! How are you ?
- I love you baby.
- What do you do for a living ?
- My Taylor is rich... I am a...
- Do you understand ?
- Baby I love you...

This is what it could happen when you just use shapes and tricks without knowing what they mean. No connection.

[buduranus2]

No words are needed.

Humbling ? Humiliation ?
Not at all !
Did I say something wrong ?
If you didn't understand it was a compliment I am sorry for that.

Totally misunderstood. I mean "humbling" in the context of humility: "a modest or low view of one's own importance; humbleness." Like I said previously, your remarks were the highest praise I've ever received or could ever have hoped for. Maybe a bad choice of words on my part.

[Lionelsax]

I am sorry, I am French.
I know what humble means it's the same word in French.
When I saw "humbling", I found another meaning...
Like Aussies say : double-entente.

[grahambop]

I haven’t recorded many blues tunes for some reason, I found this one though. I guess I tend to play jazz-blues using bebop-type lines but with some bluesy phrases thrown in.

[ragman1]

@ragman1 you deleted your post, you know better than me that I am very used to playing without backing track and I mainly play vertically even if I'm completely alone, maybe you never noticed it.
I really appreciate you, you are unique.

I'd forgotten about it. I can't remember what I said.

It may have been something about being able to hear the changes if the backing is removed. The solo notes should spell out the sound of the changes. If you can't hear the changes it generally means the notes are rambling.

[Lionelsax]

I'd forgotten about it. I can't remember what I said.

It may have been something about being able to hear the changes if the backing is removed. The solo notes should spell out the sound of the changes. If you can't hear the changes it generally means the notes are rambling.

Sure the change can be heard, you play that in a military way without musical motion. The problem is that you don't want to hear what I do.
Seriously, if you can't hear what I do, it means you can't listen to be bop.
What I do comes from Charlie Parker and Joe Pass.
I don't play like them but it's the same vocabulary.
Don't you hear my phrases ?
It's all about tension and release. Man you have a problem.
You just listen to yourself without listening to the rest of the world.
Yeah man ! Teach me French !

[Lionelsax]

@ragman1, seriously.
You don't hear the change ?
If you don't, man, stop everything, you or someone else.
If it's medical, find a neurologist.

Seriously if you can't hear the change here you'll never appreciate be bop.
This is my favorite saxophonist.
You'll say you hear the change because it's a well known player.

{You said you liked my sax playing, I exactly use the same vocabulary on the guitar.
Same phrases.}

I think you just listen to yourself, that's your world.
This is mine, or the one I love.

[Lionelsax]

I haven’t recorded many blues tunes for some reason, I found this one though. I guess I tend to play jazz-blues using bebop-type lines but with some bluesy phrases thrown in.

Yes ! That's blues ! Thanks for sharing.

[ragman1]

Seriously if you can't hear the change here

I just remembered why I got rid of the post now. The first time I didn't hear it so well. Then I listened again and heard it so I deleted. Unfortunately you'd already read it.

So you're saved

[Lionelsax]

This may interest you more than my stuff. I don't play bebop but graham does. Watch carefully!

This tune, unless you know it, can be confusing because the head is different from the soloing. I've cut the head. The soloing chords are very simple:

F7 - Bb7 - F7 - %
Bb7 - % - F7 - D7
Gm - C7 - F7/Ab7 - G7/Gb7

(Actually, it's the same as mine except for the diminished chord. And mine's in Bb, of course)

I've panned his original backing to a minimum and made the solo clearer. I've comped the chords over the top so it's very clear. That's me thumping the chords.

What he's playing is much more complex than mine and it's probably what you want to sound like. In fact, I'm sure of it.

But listen to his lines and how they outline the changes. You can hear them very clearly, and that's the point. This is what you've got to sound like!

Good luck :-)

You are on the wrong way, in blues there are not chords as you think.
The blues is a cyclic form like years, they are repeated, sometimes it doesn't snow in Winter, sometimes it's a bit cold in Summer.
You can't think it like a pop song.
You can play these chords on every blues and underline others that you suggest and these ones are not written but everyone knows they are there, that's be bop.
Don't think things are so static.