POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[Tal_175]

The one where you memorize ten solos or whatever?

What does that guy practice?

Nothing but the solos?

I don't know, did you ask these people:

As for this bit … sure … i know some people who have learned a handful of whole solos that they fell in love with and just played them with the recordings and never really made any attempt to dissect and incorporate the language.

[pamosmusic]

I guess I already said this, but those guys played scales and arpeggios, some of them played classical quite a bit, they improvised over tunes, they composd, they learned bebop heads and they were good. I asked one of them (a bass player, for whatever that's worth) what he was practicing once and he said "I've been reading quite a bit of Nabokov."

So yes. You can learn whole solos without isolating particular phrases and sound like you're playing bebop.

Is that really the argument that's happening here?

[Tal_175]

Those guys played scales and arpeggios, some of them played classical quite a bit, they improvised over tunes, they composd, they learned bebop heads and they were good. I asked one of them (a bass player, for whatever that's worth) what he was practicing once and he said "I've been reading quite a bit of Nabokov."

So yes. You can learn whole solos without isolating particular phrases and sound like you're playing bebop.

Is that really the argument that's happening here?

If we don't count you arguing in circles, no.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not even arguing?

[Tal_175]

I'm not even arguing?

Like I said I am happy to find out if some people get to a point of playing bebop/starlight ahead solos competently without working on developing a vocabulary for the changes and getting fluent with them. I don't think I am prepared to accept reading Nabokov to practice improvisation as a serious answer however.

[pamosmusic]

Like I said I am happy to find out if people get to a point of playing bebop/starlight ahead solos competently without working on developing a vocabulary for the changes and getting fluent with them.

Is this different than any other style of music?

Blues, swing jazz, fusion, modern stuff?

I don't think I am prepared to accept reading Nabokov to practice improvisation as a serious answer however.

For what it's worth, this particular dude was not kidding. I got the feeling he was one of those guys that had a bass in his hand when he was four or five and just didn't really remember the time he spent getting his technique straight. And someone that young almost certainly can just hear things and play them when they listen that much and have been for that long. Not a representative case, but a case nonetheless

[Mick-7]

Man I wish I sounded like Chet Baker, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Kenny Burrell and Charlie Christian… exactly how many licks do I need to learn for that to start?

Let me rephrase that, they sounded like poor "wanna be" copies of their mentors, but we were young, some may have gotten over it.

[pamosmusic]

Man I wish I sounded like Chet Baker, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Kenny Burrell and Charlie Christian… exactly how many licks do I need to learn for that to start?

high class problems

[Mick-7]

Like I said I am happy to find out if some people get to a point of playing bebop/starlight ahead solos competently without working on developing a vocabulary for the changes and getting fluent with them.

Well, now that you've suggested even playing a Joe Pass etude qualifies as working on vocabulary I have no idea what would not qualify. I mean, one is always trying to come up with good or better lines, if that is developing vocabulary than everyone qualifies.

[Christian Miller]

Vocabulary is anything ingrained enough in your ear and probably muscle memory that you can play it without a thought.


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[Tal_175]

Is this different than any other style of music?

Blues, swing jazz, fusion, modern stuff?



For what it's worth, this particular dude was not kidding. I got the feeling he was one of those guys that had a bass in his hand when he was four or five and just didn't really remember the time he spent getting his technique straight. And someone that young almost certainly can just hear things and play them when they listen that much and have been for that long. Not a representative case, but a case nonetheless

Like I said, I am happy to find out about other path ways that are proven to work. So perhaps if one starts to play jazz by ear before the age of 5, they don't have to work on vocabulary deliberately. that's one pathway. That might work. Thought I was thinking more late teen or adult students. If you got a student in their 20's,that bassists experience wouldn't be much of a pedagogical help I suppose.

[Tal_175]

Well, now that you've suggested even playing a Joe Pass etude qualifies as working on vocabulary I have no idea what would not qualify. I mean, one is always trying to come up with good or better lines, if that is developing vocabulary than everyone qualifies.

Playing an etude once and forgetting it doesn't qualify. Stubbornly working on the etudes to an extend one ingrains chord specific ideas in their playing where one can fluently use them when playing tunes does. It's more a practice approach and attitude thing.

I already gave another example of an activity that doesn't qualify, not sure if you missed it. Let me give another example, someone who maps a tune to it's tonal center then goes to the noodle land.

[Tal_175]

Vocabulary is anything ingrained enough in your ear and probably muscle memory that you can play it without a thought.

The question is how does one systematically work on expanding it. When a student comes to you and say they want to get good at bebop/straight ahead style. You notice in their playing that they have very little vocabulary, they are just aimlessly hitting notes? What is your approach you take with the student. Again if you say, you asked them to just keep noodling and it works, I think that's a worthwhile finding to share on the forum.

[pamosmusic]

Like I said, I am happy to find out about other path ways that are proven to work. So perhaps if one starts to play jazz by ear before the age of 5, they don't have to work on vocabulary deliberately. that's one pathway. That might work. Thought I was thinking more late teen or adult students. If you got a student in their 20's,that bassists experience wouldn't be much of a pedagogical help I suppose.

Okay so the people I know who don’t learn the way you described I guess don’t count.

[Tal_175]

Okay so the people I know who don’t learn the way you described I guess don’t count.

I just said it counted, I mean, for people under 5.

[pamosmusic]

Where?

[Tal_175]

Where?

#161

[pamosmusic]

Like I said, I am happy to find out about other path ways that are proven to work. So perhaps if one starts to play jazz by ear before the age of 5, they don't have to work on vocabulary deliberately. that's one pathway. That might work. Thought I was thinking more late teen or adult students. If you got a student in their 20's,that bassists experience wouldn't be much of a pedagogical help I suppose.

This one?

I said that was one dude who like … read Nabokov instead of working on vocabulary.

Ive known plenty of other people … which I mentioned.

I guess I already said this, but those guys played scales and arpeggios, some of them played classical quite a bit, they improvised over tunes, they composd, they learned bebop heads and they were good. I asked one of them (a bass player, for whatever that's worth) what he was practicing once and he said "I've been reading quite a bit of Nabokov."

So yes. You can learn whole solos without isolating particular phrases and sound like you're playing bebop.

and

As for this bit … sure … i know some people who have learned a handful of whole solos that they fell in love with and just played them with the recordings and never really made any attempt to dissect and incorporate the language. They’d play the solo, then play their scales and arpeggios and junk, then play the solo, then improvise and see what happened.

I don’t know. I never thought that was particularly uncommon.

Jim Hall used to say he never really transcribed, save a handful of Bird solos.

[Tal_175]

i know some people who have learned a handful of whole solos that they fell in love with and just played them with the recordings and never really made any attempt to dissect and incorporate the language. They’d play the solo, then play their scales and arpeggios and junk, then play the solo, then improvise and see what happened.

Playing someone else's solo in a performance and sprinkle that with some junk would be a predictable result of this approach, I agree.

[pamosmusic]

The question is how does one systematically work on expanding it. When a student comes to you and say they want to get good at bebop/straight ahead style. You notice in their playing that they have very little vocabulary, they are just aimlessly hitting notes? What is your approach you take with the student. Again if you say, you asked them to just keep noodling and it works, I think that's a worthwhile thing to share on the forum.

Youve also kind of switched questions here, to asking how we’ve taught students. It’s a different question, but it’s at least one I can answer.

I teach students in a super systematic and sequenced way, much like what you described but I’m also suuuuper left brain and a lot of people aren’t.

Because I think and teach that way, I tend to have students who want to learn that way. I have an MIT physics professor, a lawyer, a retired research scientist, a mathematician.

I do have one guy who doesn’t think this way at all, and I give him ideas of things to work on. Mostly technical things, ways of thinking about vocabulary, passages from solos, harmonic ideas, and he just does what he does. I honestly don’t really understand how his learning process works, but he’s quite good.

[Tal_175]

Youve also kind of switched questions here, to asking how we’ve taught students. It’s a different question, but it’s at least one I can answer.

I am not switching questions. I've been trying to stick to the same point. But you have a tendency to turn things into tecnicallity arguments then I have to pull you back to the topic.

[Tal_175]

I teach students in a super systematic and sequenced way, much like what you described but I’m also suuuuper left brain and a lot of people aren’t.

So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[pamosmusic]

No I’m just saying that I have absolutely known very good players who don’t practice the way you described.

But alrighty.

[Tal_175]

No I’m just saying that I have absolutely known very good players who don’t practice the way you described.

But alrighty.

OK please do share their practice processes. I mean that could be a valuable teaching tool for you too when you have a student who isn't as left brained as you. Aren't you curious?

[Tal_175]

Suppose one's goal is to competently play in the style of bebop/hard-bop/straight-ahead. Like all those records that we love.
Here are some of my observations:

- This style of jazz is played with phrases. A phrase isn't a two bar lick necessarily. They are often short.
- These phrases have a certain recurring relationship with the underlying harmony but there is still a lot of expressive freedom with them as they are like, well vocabulary.
- The phrases can be analyzed as things like 3-9 arpeggios, bebop scale etc. but it is unclear if a player necessarily needs to know this as long as they practice them in a way that they can hear the phrases in the context of harmony and the phrases come out right.
- Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas that you'll find in the recordings of a player. These could be things like playing around chord shapes, using minor ideas over ii-V's etc. These I'd say also part of their vocabulary in a broader sense.
- Good players have a rich set of vocabulary that they are expressive with. A lot more than an average noodler in any style.
- If you study a player, you'll find that not everything they play is vocabulary, but quite a bit of it are. Their vocabulary also opens up their creativity as jumping off points to different ideas in the moment.

Are there any good faith disagreements with these observations?