POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[Christian Miller]

Well if the level is ‘regular fixture at Smalls’
I fear the answer for most of us may be ‘infinite’

The good news is that it is not necessary to be a regular fixture at smalls to enjoy playing music and even be financially compensated for it.

Pat Metheny was getting paid gigs (which is the only objective measure of ‘pro’) after a couple of years in a garage with a copy of Smokin at the Half Note. There are others who have been playing for decades but never in public.

So it impossible to say. And as everyone says the bandstand is where the real lessons are learned, so traditionally at least, one’s practice should be directed towards that goal. Which might not take all that long if you know what to work on, and I suspect may come sooner than a lot of players might be comfortable with (because being slightly frightened of performing doesn’t mean you aren’t ready.)

On the other hand, I feel the metric is to be taken as a rate of change, not an absolute. It’s the feeling of development as a player that i think is psychologically rewarding; not comparing yourself to others.

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[AllanAllen]

I was being daft (I think that's your word for it(again, more daftness there)). I think the "pro vs hobbyist" thing is silly.

[Cunamara]

doubt it

I have persistence rather than talent. Or is persistence a talent?

[Bobby Timmons]

hmm

never heard of it

You're mad at Open Studio.

[pamosmusic]

You're mad at Open Studio.

mad at who?

[Mick-7]

I have persistence rather than talent. Or is persistence a talent?

"Some people are born mediocre, some people achieve mediocrity, and some people have mediocrity thrust upon them." - Joseph Heller, Catch 22

It's not my fault, I tell you, it was forced upon me!

Not sure about "achieving mediocrity," just do nothing and you'll get there.

[AllanAllen]

I have persistence rather than talent. Or is persistence a talent?

Persistence is my only talent. I can make up my mind to struggle for x minutes and then sit there and struggle.

[Christian Miller]

I was being daft (I think that's your word for it(again, more daftness there)). I think the "pro vs hobbyist" thing is silly.

I understood what you meant. And I agree.


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[Bobby Timmons]

mad at who?

Selective reading comprehension loss I see. And you were being critical of me before for calling people on irrational, neurotic behavior due to deep seeded complexes.

[kris]

Or maybe someone here uses the word "mad" too often.

[Bobby Timmons]

[pamosmusic]

Or maybe someone here uses the word "mad" too often.

Or answers every post with an add for open studio

[Christian Miller]

"Some people are born mediocre, some people achieve mediocrity, and some people have mediocrity thrust upon them." - Joseph Heller, Catch 22

It's not my fault, I tell you, it was forced upon me!

Not sure about "achieving mediocrity," just do nothing and you'll get there.

To be even a mediocre musician requires a level of dedication and graft which is kind of … deeply moving?

Besides mediocrity is relative. What is mediocre by the standards of high level jazz or the classical music world is stunning and inexplicable virtuosity to someone who just plays through a few popular tunes for pleasure with friends.

(Although I maintain the latter is important for everyone. Learn some ‘social’ tunes, and something you can sing that will suit your voice even if it’s very limited. Anyway….)

There has to be more to it than trying to get to the top of a very steep pyramid…

Aside, from that in the jazz world I notice there is a lot of respect for someone who knows who they are and does it well. Not every player needs to be able to play the same bag - it’s about finding your own voice. And that’s is a beautiful thing because it gets rid of that awful competitive vibe where we compare ourselves to others (none more so than me).

Lastly, professional musicians are also aware that music isn’t always a pure meritocracy- even something as low rent as jazz! That’s the way the world all over. To be a professional full time performer requires a whole slew of soft and hard skills of which the ability to play one’s instrument is just one.

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[Ukena]

To be even a mediocre musician requires a level of dedication and graft which is kind of … deeply moving?

Besides mediocrity is relative. What is mediocre by the standards of high level jazz or the classical music world is stunning and inexplicable virtuosity to someone who just plays through a few popular tunes for pleasure with friends.

(Although I maintain the latter is important for everyone. Learn some ‘social’ tunes, and something you can sing that will suit your voice even if it’s very limited. Anyway….)

There has to be more to it than trying to get to the top of a very steep pyramid…

Aside, from that in the jazz world I notice there is a lot of respect for someone who knows who they are and does it well. Not every player needs to be able to play the same bag - it’s about finding your own voice. And that’s is a beautiful thing because it gets rid of that awful competitive vibe where we compare ourselves to others (none more so than me).

Lastly, professional musicians are also aware that music isn’t always a pure meritocracy- even something as low rent as jazz! That’s the way the world all over. To be a professional full time performer requires a whole slew of soft and hard skills of which the ability to play one’s instrument is just one.

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Hard to argue with almost any of this. However, I'm not so sure what level of graft is required...

[Ukena]

My brother-in-law was an extremely accomplished classical guitarist whose final at the conservatory in Firenze was a master class with Andrés Segovia, who picked him out of the class to demonstrate many difficult passages. Segovia recommended him as a promising concert artist.

But my brother-in-law suffered from debilitating stage fright, and very rarely played in public. His career became teaching, and every time we visited him in Firenze, people would stop him on the street – "Professore!" – and exclaim their love effusively. Towards the end of his life he played for friends when I would come visit – I'd play a relatively simple piece, and he'd play an amazingly difficult piece as a throw-away.

Not a professional guitarist by any objective measure, but one of the finest guitarists I ever knew.

[Christian Miller]

Hard to argue with almost any of this. However, I'm not so sure what level of graft is required...

Well it's Northern English for 'hard work'. A grafter is someone who works hard.

[bediles]

My brother-in-law was an extremely accomplished classical guitarist whose final at the conservatory in Firenze was a master class with Andrés Segovia, who picked him out of the class to demonstrate many difficult passages. Segovia recommended him as a promising concert artist.

But my brother-in-law suffered from debilitating stage fright, and very rarely played in public. His career became teaching, and every time we visited him in Firenze, people would stop him on the street – "Professore!" – and exclaim their love effusively. Towards the end of his life he played for friends when I would come visit – I'd play a relatively simple piece, and he'd play an amazingly difficult piece as a throw-away.

Not a professional guitarist by any objective measure, but one of the finest guitarists I ever knew.

Great story! I would consider your bro a professional guitarist fwiw

[Christian Miller]

There is only one definition of "professional" that is objective and it isn't directly related to playing ability.

Ten years ago I was a full time professional jazz guitarist (I had one afternoon of teaching IIRC). Now I am what used to be called semi-professional and make up the rest of my hours teaching. I would regard myself as a better musician NOW than I was ten years ago.

As most of us today have sandwich careers and multiple income streams, many would say if you earn any of your income from playing or royalties from recorded music etc, you are professional, and semi professional is less widely heard. Most world class jazz musicians have teaching gigs. So in this strict sense, maybe Pat Metheny is real professional?

Relatively few jazz musicians perform full time (I had a niche for a while), and those that do usually play other forms of music such as pop sessions and tours. Day jobs and so on are not unusual. People do what they have to.

In a sense, we are all amateurs in the strict sense, which is to say we do it for love. That's everything.

[bediles]

There is only one definition of "professional" that is objective and it isn't directly related to playing ability.

Ten years ago I was a full time professional jazz guitarist (I had one afternoon of teaching IIRC). Now I am what used to be called semi-professional and make up the rest of my hours teaching. I would regard myself as a better musician NOW than I was ten years ago.

As most of us today have sandwich careers and multiple income streams, many would say if you earn any of your income from playing or royalties from recorded music etc, you are professional, and semi professional is less widely heard. Most world class jazz musicians have teaching gigs. So in this strict sense, maybe Pat Metheny is real professional?

Relatively few jazz musicians perform full time (I had a niche for a while), and those that do usually play other forms of music such as pop sessions and tours. Day jobs and so on are not unusual. People do what they have to.

In a sense, we are all amateurs in the strict sense, which is to say we do it for love. That's everything.

Fair enough but I think the two scenarios you describe on your career are the same thing: professional musician. Semi-pro is a weekend warrior or a student that plays gigs, something along those lines to me.

[AllanAllen]

So Wes Montgomery and Tal Farlow weren't professionals. Got it, that makes sense....

[AllanAllen]

Well it's Northern English for 'hard work'. A grafter is someone who works hard.

Pretty sure they mistook graft for grift. To be honest, I think a bit of grift is also needed, you have to make people who don't know you connect with you immediately.

[bediles]

A little extra to add: Professional musician to me is any multifaceted career with playing involved.

-Bar gigs, teaching at guitar centre/L&M
-touring musician (whatever genre) that works at the library or a sushi restaurant when not doing that.
-wedding bands/hosting a jam/teach out of your house
-soley make $$ from touring, maybe selling some arrangements
-record company artist management plus releasing your own music and touring.
- studio recording assistant, some mixing, make string arrangements, hired to play large group ensemble
-arranging commissions
-PhD teaching 5 classes, play your weird free music once a month
-live sound/jazz gigs/booking for a club, hired gun for lap steel

I respect people that have their thing together more but that level really depends on what their goals are, what style they're playing etc. If you don't solo too well but mostly play gypsy rhythm gigs and you have great feel and professionalism than that gets kudos. Same if you're a top call person or touring.

[Christian Miller]

Pretty sure they mistook graft for grift. To be honest, I think a bit of grift is also needed, you have to make people who don't know you connect with you immediately.

It amuses me how similar grift is to graft. The word I mean, not the activity.

[Christian Miller]

Fair enough but I think the two scenarios you describe on your career are the same thing: professional musician. Semi-pro is a weekend warrior or a student that plays gigs, something along those lines to me.

I think that's how most people would use the term today.

In any case the point stands. There's a big range of playing skill between professionals.

I would say that there are certain musical skills that would certainly stand you in good stead as professional (ie working) jazz player, and I would say

- either know a lot of repertoire in your chosen niche, or be a good sight reader. Or both.
- be able to play effective accompaniment both in groups and in duos
- be able to read and interpret lead sheet chord symbols and 'hold it together' without losing your place
- be conscientious about learning tunes for gigs
- be able to lay down a sense of groove or at least pulse esp in duo and trio
- work on your time

These may not be things everyone works on at home. OTOH playing gigs has taught me the central importance of these things, (I am not as good as I would like always at these things.)

I'm sure I've missed some out.

[John A.]

There is only one definition of "professional" that is objective and it isn't directly related to playing ability.

Ten years ago I was a full time professional jazz guitarist (I had one afternoon of teaching IIRC). Now I am what used to be called semi-professional and make up the rest of my hours teaching. I would regard myself as a better musician NOW than I was ten years ago.

As most of us today have sandwich careers and multiple income streams, many would say if you earn any of your income from playing or royalties from recorded music etc, you are professional, and semi professional is less widely heard. Most world class jazz musicians have teaching gigs. So in this strict sense, maybe Pat Metheny is real professional?

Relatively few jazz musicians perform full time (I had a niche for a while), and those that do usually play other forms of music such as pop sessions and tours. Day jobs and so on are not unusual. People do what they have to.

In a sense, we are all amateurs in the strict sense, which is to say we do it for love. That's everything.

It seems to me that if you make your living from any combination of music-making (performance, education, composing, arranging, production, whatever), you’re a professional musician. The percent of pro musicians surviving exclusively by performing the music of their choice has always been small. So doing other things doesn’t negate your status as pro.

I mean most architects don’t design buildings, most lawyers don’t really do law, etc. That doesn’t mean they’re not professional architects, lawyers, etc.

I agree with the other definition of semi-pro as someone mainly doing something else entirely for a living and performing for pay intermittently. Some people at that level are as good as the pros, some maybe as good in some ways but not as comprehensively. E.g, you can play standards at an audience-pleasing level and hang in a pro band on material you know, but there comes a point in the set where they’re doing stuff you can’t do, or calling standards you’ve never even heard of.