JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 1) - Whisper Not

[emilP]

Basically if you think you have to learn separate language for a m7b5 chord you don’t. I daresay you know a lot more dorian and melodic minor stuff than locrian.

Also we have that m3 relationship as well - you can go Cm Ebm on Am7b5 D7

Christian,
Could you explain what you mean by" m3 relationship"?
For me,Cm is the substitution for Em7b5 and Ebm is an upper structure on D7(b9,3,b13),what is called polytonality by superposed triads
All the best
Emil

[grahambop]

I’m guessing what Christian means is for example that you can play a Cm6 chord then just move the same shape up 3 frets and repeat it. This sounds great over Am7b5 going to D7, I use it a lot.

[christianm77]

Christian,
Could you explain what you mean by" m3 relationship"?
For me,Cm is the substitution for Em7b5 and Ebm is an upper structure on D7(b9,3,b13),what is called polytonality by superposed triads
All the best
Emil

You mean Cm is a sub for Am7b5 (typo)? If not Cm6 is an inversion of Am7b5 and vice versa.

If so, yeah, exactly that; you take the same motif on II and move it up a m3 on V. Classic bop trick. Works in major and minor. Musicians did that for years before they knew what a 'upper structure triad' was. It just sounds right. (And in fact the major version doesn't fit so well into that rationale.)

You also see this move a lot in standards BTW - II-7 to IV-6. So now you know its a II-V in disguise :-) (Or maybe the other way around?)

Nerd's corner: It's not really polytonality. Polytonality is more like playing in C and F# major at the same time; two independent key centres as heard in works by Poulenc etc. Vertically very dissonant, but from the perspective of the listener, may be possible to discern the superimposed keys.

From the POV of CST there's a clear relationship between Ebm and D7, as you say, they form part of the same overall sound (although I actually do think I hear US triads independently, but that's a whole thing.)

[Ronstuff]

[Eck]

Nice playing everybody!
Here is my effort. Backing Hal Leonard Real Book Volume 2.
@Kris: was your backing MrSunnybass?

Great playing but... the lion is out of the cage! I mean that piano is riding in your wheels and disrupts your beautiful lines!


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[kris]

Yea...the piano is a little to loud.Guitar is a very nice!

[kris]

Nice playing and feel...a little more backing track.Guitar sounds very good.

[TOMMO]

Beautiful lyrical lines, kris!

[kris]

Beautiful lyrical lines, kris!

Thanks Tommo,
I put my post to Jam Round 2.
Best
Kris

[Eck]

It’s gonna take me at least another week. It would be my first improv on something that’s not blues, I’m still not hearing all the chords and even not know them all without thinking real hard. Was planning to get to know things today, l could work of what chords I know from Birk’s Works, but cat disappeared 6.45am and just returned at 11pm. Real joy to hear and read all the posts, I’m getting heaps out of this already!


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[rpjazzguitar]

It’s gonna take me at least another week. It would be my first improv on something that’s not blues, I’m still not hearing all the chords and even not know them all without thinking real hard. Was planning to get to know things today, l could work of what chords I know from Birk’s Works, but cat disappeared 6.45am and just returned at 11pm. Real joy to hear and read all the posts, I’m getting heaps out of this already!


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In case this helps

Bars 1-2 are basically the same thing as bars 3-4 except one starts with Cm and the other with Gm. Bar 5 is similar to bar 1 and then it's a i V into Dm followed by that ascending sequence of minor chords.

So, you can play blues in Cm, followed by blues in Gm. Then, in bar 5, more blues, this time in Dm. Bars 7-8 can be played in different ways, but you can probably do okay with thinking of it as a ii V in Cm and if you play a clam, move it one fret in either direction.

The bridge is more blues, Gm, then Dm.

[Eck]

In case this helps

Bars 1-2 are basically the same thing as bars 3-4 except one starts with Cm and the other with Gm. Bar 5 is similar to bar 1 and then it's a i V into Dm followed by that ascending sequence of minor chords.

So, you can play blues in Cm, followed by blues in Gm. Then, in bar 5, more blues, this time in Dm. Bars 7-8 can be played in different ways, but you can probably do okay with thinking of it as a ii V in Cm and if you play a clam, move it one fret in either direction.

The bridge is more blues, Gm, then Dm.

Thanks. It takes me more time to hear the chords in my mind. Many songs have this progression of bars 1-2 and 3-4, but to me they work as a trap as long as I don’t get that d9 chord’s proper in my head. I found the 3 (note, is there a better word?) in that chord gives me the lead to that V which to me doesn’t sound like a V at all as it’s minor, but that’s where the f# in the Dd9 helps me hear the key change.
Apart from that I’m learning the scales better, as I only know the Dorian (played as the Ionian starting from bass string).
I’ve got experience composing and cannot stop myself from having to find those out-of-scale notes that make connections.
So the big challenge is convincing myself it’s ok to play just blues scales. And to know them. Like proper instead of ear-play and a few bigger intervals.


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[mr. beaumont]

Honestly Eck, I think you're overthinking it.

I say try it out and post and if anybody says something mean, I'll have them crying for their momma in one post.

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks. It takes me more time to hear the chords in my mind. Many songs have this progression of bars 1-2 and 3-4, but to me they work as a trap as long as I don’t get that d9 chord’s proper in my head. I found the 3 (note, is there a better word?) in that chord gives me the lead to that V which to me doesn’t sound like a V at all as it’s minor, but that’s where the f# in the Dd9 helps me hear the key change.
Apart from that I’m learning the scales better, as I only know the Dorian (played as the Ionian starting from bass string).
I’ve got experience composing and cannot stop myself from having to find those out-of-scale notes that make connections.
So the big challenge is convincing myself it’s ok to play just blues scales. And to know them. Like proper instead of ear-play and a few bigger intervals.


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If I understand you ... play bar 1 as a Cm blues lick.

Then, think of bars 2 and 3 as a ii V im in Gm. A blues lick in Gm will work.

Bar 4: first two beats are notated as Em7b5, which has exactly the same notes as Gm6. So, if you keep playing Gm licks, it will work.

Bar 4: You can also look at all of bar 4 as a ii V going into the Dm in bar 5. Bm7b5 is the same as Dm6, and those D blues licks will work.

And, you could continue playing D blues licks for bars 5-8.

I'm not suggesting it's great music, although it could be in the hands of a melodic player.

Bear in mind, that this is not my ultimate recommendation for how to play this tune. Rather, it's a path that is worthy, particularly for the intermediate player.

My idea of the goal is to be able to forget about the chords/scales/arps etc, hear/feel the chords in your mind and scat-sing/play a solo to that without thinking linguistically.

[Eck]

Thanks Mr Beaumont and RPJAZZGUITAR! I’m getting there. Conversion between learning to keep it simple and knowing the scales. Between not getting ambitious and starting to grab an opportunity for a little arpeggio. And between getting less pain in my arms and pushing through. This is a real blessing for my learning.


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