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I don't know... for me phrasing is all about meaning.
When we speak with meaning and stress we work with intonation and accents and pauses (even though unconciously)...
Same thing with music... I can't just mimic it through building up some mechanical system.
Also sometimes we can use absolutely different means... Frisell can say how much his performance is influenced by this or that singer but when you listen you do not hear him imitating literally the phrasing... he does very guitaristic thing...
Of course if one wants to be able to play Bird's language... then probably it is important to learn that stuff conciously
And guitar cannot be irrelevant - it is the tool.. it is most relevant to what we do with phrasing. I know what you mean when you say that but i am afraid it can be misleading... maybe I am wrong.
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11-06-2020 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Life is full of messy contradictions. Sue me.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
But much like we tell players to accent the upbeats to even out their 8ths because they accent the beat, it’s a compensation for the fact that many players are guitar focussed to feel them to go and check out horn players, pianists, singers, drummers, string quartets etc.
Horn players have more phrasing together than guitar... it’s a bit more like singing. It’s probably easier. The breath and so on. I like guitarists (instrumentalists) who have that singing quality. So that’s what you learn by looking into horns.
I also learned how to use scales in straightahead jazz. Horn players love scales.
It gets people away from being lick regurgitators and imitators of this or that guitar player a bit as well.
But I don’t trust any guitarist who says they never listen to guitar. That instantly makes me think they are pretentious and trying to prove something.
(You also learn that some horn stuff really doesn’t translate.TBF some tenor stuff doesn’t even translate to alto.)
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every instrument is irrelevant - it's the phrasing that is not irrelevant - and where does that come from? well it doesn't have to come from anywhere except the music - but it's hard not to think it's most closely connected to verbal and vocal rhythms
the clue is in the word 'instrument' perhaps
the claim is that - if you don't watch out the guitar will tend to make you phrase in an unmusical way
right from the start - for me - I've been trying to fit every phrase I play into the fingering patterns that I'm trying to learn in order to learn where the bloody notes are on the fretboard. you learn e.g. g major with your pinky on the low e string, then your second finger, then your first - and then with your third finger off the third on the bottom e string - then with your pinky off the root on the A string etc. etc.
without these fingering patterns I wouldn't be developing an ability to find the notes I want in a melody I'm trying to lug etc. etc.
but these fingering patterns have NOTHING to do with phrasing and everything to do with the exigencies of fingering on a six string instrument with the intervals the guitar happens to have between the strings
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players like KB, JH and WM have solved this problem beautifully - creatively - musically: and that's largely why they sound so good
but the guitar breeds a culture in which people take seriously such musical nonsense as - you play three notes per string then change string (or whatever it is)
imagine that translated into horn-language!!!!
Nicky Hart - on the vid. Christian posted - goes on about this with astronomically more authority than I can claim.
if you listen to the amazing guy explaining Parker's phrasing and you don't think the differences between his increasingly musical renditions of his template-idea are musically significant then we'll have to agree to disagree
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if you come into the music from somewhere other than jazz as most guitarists seem to I think it's easier to believe that the guitar is way more important than it is.
in rock the guitar is not just powerful - but it almost single handedly constitutes the genre
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
But yes. I think the hardest thing for the newcomer jazz guitar is to understand the music is not built around the guitar and guitar parts.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad;1073390/
According to wiki, List of jazz guitarists - Wikipedia
there are options:
Last edited by Vladan; 11-07-2020 at 01:23 PM.
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just the obvious ones man - I don't know that many guitar players!
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[QUOTE=christianm77;1073315]The international dominance of American popular culture means we are much more familiar with US accents than vice versa. You'd have to be a real Anglophile to nail it, there's no reason for an American to be familiar with Brit culture to the extent we are with US unless you went our of your way.
James Marsters on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (90's rewatch binge lol) does a very creditable job (he copied Anthony Stewart Head's real accent, which is less well to do than the one he uses on the show.) The only thing that lets him down is some of the pronunciation of less common words like 'patronise' - in Brit standard with a 'ah', in US English with an 'ey'.
(BTW my 3 year old is developing a fine London accent, somewhat similar to Ray Winstone lol (with a trace of what's called Multicultural London English, the cultural evolution of that one is very interesting). "can I have some moo'k?', 'oooh a li'uhl baybee' and so on)
Anyway this awareness if US culture, has an effect on the way I communicate on the forum incidentally. I often use Americanisms here just to aid comprehension, and use Brit idioms a lot less than I would normally.
However, sometimes don't realise that something I'm saying is a Brit idiom! Or alternatively that something I'm saying is less a Brit idiom than I think it is...
Sorry what were we talking about again?[/QUOTE
Maybe it's a little like an American southern accent. It's very easy to parody, but very hard to get right. Southern accents in the US are also still related to region and social class, so there is an aristocratic sort of southern accent, a rural version, etc. And there are phonological things that imitators rarely get right, not to mention actual idioms, inner-southern slang, etc. When I hear a southern accent on TV or in a movie, I think my reaction is not unlike that of folks from the UK hearing a "british" accent spoken by a non-brit actor.
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Originally Posted by GTRMan
I think it's great to learn "Donna Lee" because it has an incredible amount of bebop language in it. Here's Jimmy Bruno making that point. (Long rant at the beginning here. Start at 4:30 for his "Donna Lee" advice.)
Once upon a time I thought, "If I had known I would love jazz so much, I would have taken up the sax instead of the guitar." That was long ago. Now I think, "Thank God I took up the guitar!" I love Charlie Parker's playing and there's a lot to learn from it, but sounding like a saxophone on the guitar is not one of those things.
Then there's Guthrie Govan, whose use of effects give his guitar much more dynamic range than Joe Pass had. (Parker's shifts of volume are beyond the reach of an archtop guitar.)
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Enough of the Guthrie Govan videos, lol. He can really play but he's not a serious musical artist, he's a parlor trick jokester. And the tone of that guitar sounded horrible on Donna Lee.
And that Mancuso guy really has fantastic technique and chops, I must say.
Of course, his solo was shorter and while it included the bebop language it also veered into other styles. Thats OK, but not as authentic. Joe Pass was the real deal from start to finish. (Not to mention that he was playing live with another master musician in front of a large enthusiastic audience, instead of at home with a backing track.)
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
True. The same can be said of Flamenco. Folk. Blues. Pop.
So, when it comes to Jazz, do we think that great guitarists sell more records and concert tickets than horn players? I do. I've been to a number of George Benson, John McLaughlin and Pat Metheny concerts. And "Great Guitars" concerts with Barney, Herb, Charlie.
I have also been to Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon and Phil Woods concerts. The audience size for the guitarists was larger - by orders of magnitude.
Was it Chopin who said something like the following "there is no sweeter sound on earth besides a guitar, except perhaps two"
Finally, The Concierto De Aranjuez is the most requested concerto of American symphony audience members.Last edited by GTRMan; 11-06-2020 at 01:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
And instruments are most definitely relevant. If they weren't, people wouldn't construct their ensembles so carefully.Last edited by GTRMan; 11-06-2020 at 01:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by christianm77
So... yeah... like you, I now can't recall what the topic of this thread was...
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I find this interesting: Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie were both leading lights of bebop. They could play heads together in unison but when they soloed, they did not phrase the same way.
Miles played with Bird too but didn't phrase like him. Or Diz. Later, Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane did not phrase like Bird either.
Sonny Stitt, on the other hand, was called a Bird clone because he phrased so much like Bird. (I think Stitt is a great player who has played some of my favorite jazz solos.)
Maybe the thing to do is phrase one's own way...
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Interesting bit about Wes Montgomery by Pat Metheny. (From a Jim Ferguson article in Jazz Times.)
Part IV
PAT METHENY: When I was 13 years old and just starting, Wes was my first guitar-playing hero. A friend said I ought to check him out, so I got five or six of his records. The first one was The Wes Montgomery Trio [Riverside] with Melvin Rhyne and Paul Parker, which I listened to over and over again. The first thing I did was throw away my picks. I did everything I could to sound like Wes Montgomery. But when I started using my Wes stuff around Kansas City, I caught a major draft from the older guys for copying him. It forced me to realize that trying to imitate him wasn't musically good for me and it was even disrespectful. Today, I have a real problem with people who try to sound like him. I don't mind it too much when George Benson does it-somehow there's a literal connection there that has a resonance and truth-but in general it bugs me.
Wes' phrasing and melodic development affected me the most. He had a story-telling quality that let ideas unfold over time in a way no guitarist had done before. He took certain stylistic breakthroughs of Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane and applied them to the guitar in a way that is the ultimate achievement for an improvising musician. On a phrasing level, he made the guitar speak. Up to that point, players picked every note and had guitar-like phrasing. He was in the same ballpark with the greatest horn improvisers; he's probably the only pre-1970 guitarist I can say that about. Wes and Jim Hall pretty much revolutionized the instrument. Those are the two guys for me.
Wes was a harmonic improviser second to none. He also got that horn-like Clifford Brown articulation happening. Even now there are so few guitarists who can play inside a rhythm section and make it swing like that. A lot of it was the thumb factor. Since he didn't use a pick, he had to not only learn different ways of negotiating tempos, but also innovate ways of getting from point A to point B on the guitar neck. I recently saw a video of him playing with a Dutch big band. What knocked me out was that he casually looked around-as he used just three left-hand fingers-making it all seem so easy. There was such a joyful, happy spirit that I laughed the whole time I saw it.
One of my pet peeves is that people say Wes sold out, but his later records are some of my favorites. The one I recommend most highly is Smokin' At The Half Note [Verve]. I can sing every note played by Wes, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, and Jimmy Cobb. "If You Could See Me Now" is the greatest guitar solo ever played, including anything by Jimi Hendrix, Robert Johnson, or anybody else. It's the highest level attained on the guitar in terms of just dealing with music. I also love Down Here On The Ground and A Day In The Life [both A&M]. Those records illuminate another aspect of his improvisational talents: Stretching out and playing 50 choruses on a tune is one thing, but not many guys can take eight bars and make a perfect jewel of a statement.
Right before Wes died in 1968, I met him at the Kansas City Jazz Festival. I asked him for his autograph-today it's on my wall-and explained that I was just learning. He said, "You've got to know all the notes on the instrument." That probably was the best thing he could have told me, because I was still avoiding going up above the 5th fret. He was so nice to me, a little punk with braces on my teeth. I especially remember the glow he had and the vibe of goodness he projected. Wes was a very special cat.
http://hepcat1950.com/patonwes.html
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chad certainly makes an interesting claim in the video posted above - namely, that everyone tends to stress downbeats ascending and upbeats descending
if that's even nearly true of mainstream players from Lester to Dexter it's pretty fascinating
whilst I had never explicitly noticed this I'm sure I tend to do it too - but even so - it's still interesting to notice it
you don't have to use approach tones and enclosure either - but if you want to get certain effects going in your playing then...
Parker's phrasing strikes me - and always has - as pure spine-tingling hair-raising magic. I love Sonny Stitt too - but I'm not the only one who has listened to him a tiny fraction as much as I've listened to Parker
But the issues in play may well be common elements in both their distinctive styles
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Last edited by christianm77; 11-06-2020 at 07:55 PM.
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Anyway, so the thing is, when you try to imitate bop, you will probably always speak it with an accent. And it's been shown melodies follow speech patterns.
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Wow. Chad. He's a friend. He was a student at The Brubeck Institute. I was a teacher. I wasn't directly his teacher but I did teach and assist in teaching a few classes he was in. One was where Benny Green taught for a week. I helped and co-taught. I have some recordings of us I need to mix. I also mixed a few of thir albums. I'm so glad he's getting such recognition, mainly through his youtube videos. He's a great writer too.
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Hey Groyniad, you might like to try out these - an ongoing collection of diatonic major approach note/enclosure exercises that I've been putting together for my own practise purposes and students over the past few years. They're sourced from PDFs by Chad Lefkowitz-Brown, fellow saxophonist, Steve Neff, Barry Harris, Pasquale Grasso and from listening to all the bop greats.
Approach note/enclosures are placed between/around ascending and descending scale and arpeggio figures. The descending arpeggio figures are often interleaved in my examples. Louis Armstrong (intro to West End Blues) and Charlie Parker were particularly partial to that device. Enjoy!
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...just to clarify, when I said intrument specifics are ireveleant, I meant other instrument specifics. For example horn specifics are irrevelent to guitar, of course guitar technique specifics can not be irrevelant to guitar, like hammers and pull offs, Indeed, to copy Wes, we must use the very same fingerings as he , because we must allow the same pull offs, hammers, but most importantly the same slides...
All above could be a bottleneck, which prevents guitar playing to have free expressions, which is similar to singing. This problem is unevitable in medium up and up tempos, where you only can play movements what you practiced. (I said movements, not licks, but still..) This is a limitation.
It is interesting that how ballads eliminate this bottleneck, and allows you to really play something, what you never practiced (technically) with other words express yourself more freely, and speak, and say something. I think this is a real differentiator between learning musicians, some like ballads, and can not do so much in up tempos, others like more meduim up and up tempos, and can not do so much in ballads
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Seems to me that the guitar’s chief challenges are......
1. Several places to play the same thing,
2. Lack of sustain after a string “attack”
We have to deal with both - but - we don’t have to sound exactly like a sax, trumpet, or piano. We can take measures to achieve similar phrasing and articulation, but beyond that, we play the guitar and let them worry about imitating us.Last edited by GTRMan; 11-07-2020 at 09:56 AM.
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I'm obsessed with the guitar - please don't think I'm dissing it!
it's just that it sets a distinctive array of challenges and I think you have to guard against being 'in denial' about that
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation