What you REALLY need to play the changes

[djg]

that went downhill quickly

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

that went downhill quickly

It did yes. I wonder if anyone understands what I really meant, except for you.

DB

[pauln]

I wonder if anyone understands what I really meant...DB

Was it "Hare on a G String"?

[christianm77]

Was it "Hare on a G String"?

Dunno, I’ll keep rabbiting on

[christianm77]

Is there ONE single post you can NOT react too? What does your wife think of your forum addiction? How can even live typing 24-7???????

DB

its on account of my rabbit enthusiasm and false hare of authority

[docsteve]

In a (probably) futile attempt to steer the conversation back...

A friend of mine is a church organist. He has perfect pitch, but that doesn't mean that he can play a jazz solo.

We rehearsed Bach's St Matthew Passion in historical tuning (A = 415) and he told me he had to adjust his ears to the different pitch. He didn't think of the note as A flat, but sort of recalibrated to identify 415 Hz as A.

[christianm77]

I think you have real internet addiction problem. Get some help man.

DB

I deleted my last post as I was being infantile.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

I deleted my last post as I was being infantile.

And I probably was out of line too. My apologies.

DB

[christianm77]

And I probably was out of line too. My apologies.

DB

Nah it doesn’t bother me really, and you aren’t wrong. I spend too much time here. Truth is I’m pretty bored a lot of the time atm. But I was bad before lockdown!

[grahambop]

I am reading Robin Kelley’s biography of Monk, and he describes how Monk’s recording sessions usually overran because he insisted on his sidemen learning all his new tunes by ear. Even if he had the music with him he refused to let them see the charts. When they complained, he said learning the tunes by ear would always lead to a better understanding and performance. Even Coltrane had to go through this when he played with Monk.

If they had trouble improvising on the tunes, he would tell them to forget about the chord changes and play something based on the melody, or on the rhythms of the melody.

Having ‘big ears’ was obviously of supreme importance for Monk.

[Tal_175]

I am reading Robin Kelley’s biography of Monk, and he describes how Monk’s recording sessions usually overran because he insisted on his sidemen learning all his new tunes by ear. Even if he had the music with him he refused to let them see the charts. When they complained, he said learning the tunes by ear would always lead to a better understanding and performance. Even Coltrane had to go through this when he played with Monk.

If they had trouble improvising on the tunes, he would tell them to forget about the chord changes and play something based on the melody, or on the rhythms of the melody.

Having ‘big ears’ was obviously of supreme importance for Monk.

I guess in the folk scene as well it was common for session musicians to learn tunes without charts by ear at the expense of the studio time as many couldn't read:

[Tal_175]

Is there ONE single post you can NOT react too? What does your wife think of your forum addiction? How can even live typing 24-7???????

DB

I don't think that was called for at all. You post a vague thread about a very generic topic and start attacking people for initiating a discussion because they didn't get exactly what you intended from a picture. It's not your position to make character judgements and shame people for their posting habits. I'm surprised people just let you off the hook for that.

Do you understand how internet forums work? Why don't you just post it in your blog if you want a monologue?

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

I don't think that was called for at all. You post a vague thread about a very generic topic and start attacking people for initiating a discussion because they didn't get exactly what you intended from a picture. It's not your position to make character judgements and shame people for their posting habits. I'm surprised people just let you off the hook for that. Do you understand how internet forums work? Why don't you just post it in your blog if you want a monologue?

I have been on fora for over 20 years. I started attacking people? More than one even? You mean Christian? That was dealt with (mutual apologies and we both deleted posts).. So your comment is obsolete and quite superfluous.

DB

[Tal_175]

I have been on fora for over 20 years. I started attacking people? More than one even? You mean Christian? That was dealt with (mutual apologies and we both deleted posts).. So your comment is obsolete and quite superfluous.

DB

Yes I was referring to your post about Christian. You've made remarks about Christians posting habits in the past. Your apology was only in response to Christian's apology and your rude post isn't deleted as of now.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Yes I was referring to your post about Christian. You've made remarks about Christians posting habits in the past. Your apology was only in response to Christian's apology and your rude post isn't deleted as of now.

It is now. I can't delete him quoting me though.

Yep, better to do a Blog on this.

DB

[christianm77]

it’s all cool as far as I’m concerned.

[Marinero]

"Big Ears" are genetic and learned. Musical savants have perfect tonal recall. It's why they learn so quickly. Others, will take years or even a lifetime to develop. Some never get it. I once played with an "unschooled" R&B guitarist that was one of the greatest performers I've ever had the pleasure with whom to play. We were doing Tower of Power, BS and T, Ohio Players, Cold Blood, etc. and he'd listen to the record once(yes, LP's!) and play the licks perfectly. He never forgot a tune.
Big ears? Yes, although I doubt Bugs would qualify.
Good playing . . . Marinero

[MarkRhodes]

If you think about it melody is rhythm - expressed through some pitch set like a scale or chord tones etc.

Its the rhythm that makes it more than simple notes

There is a sense of flow to it. We don't hear the notes as individual ones (only) but as parts of phrases. Repetition. And (usually) a climactic point.

[MarkRhodes]

I guess in the folk scene as well it was common for session musicians to learn tunes without charts by ear at the expense of the studio time as many couldn't read:

This was true in Nashville too. It's why so many used the "Nashville Number System." (It need not take very long to do, esp for pros who do this every day all day. Many of the singers and songwriters did not arrive with charts----even if the session players COULD read----and it is true many could not---there was nothing for them TO read except their own shorthand notes.



This was also true in some cases with The Wrecking Crew in LA, even though those players could read well. They sometimes worked from demos and had to create their own parts for songs written by pop singers or bands who did not have charts for the musicians to play from. Carol Kaye wrote that when Quincy Jones was conducting the session for Bill Cosby's "Hickey Burr," his only direction to her was, "Play E minor."

[emanresu]

Thing that bugs me more than anything.. If I am not able to play a simple but meaningful and beautiful solo, how the hell am I supposed to do it with more complex stuff?

I bet soloing well has way more to do with something entirely psychological than we care to even think in mundane practice.

[Pycroft]

If you think about it melody is rhythm - expressed through some pitch set like a scale or chord tones etc.

Not only that , harmony is rhythm as well . What is a perfect 5th ? a rhythm of 3 against 4 played so fast that the individual pulses are heard as continuous tones .

[pauln]

Thing that bugs me more than anything.. If I am not able to play a simple but meaningful and beautiful solo, how the hell am I supposed to do it with more complex stuff?

I bet soloing well has way more to do with something entirely psychological than we care to even think in mundane practice.

Your intuition is correct. Descriptions like "testifying" and "making a statement" applied to soloing point to the single most important aspect of a solo, which is "having something to say". That is the foundation of what makes it meaningful, and if you are just calling it in, the lack of meaning will be felt.

There is technical and theoretical musicological meaning, but what really makes a solo is having something to say whose meaning moves the feelings and emotions of the listener... it needs to be authentic to have this power, not contrived or constructed. All the studying and practicing only serves to develop the capacity to freely express yourself and become confident in that stand-alone capacity itself.

[coolvinny]

I am reading Robin Kelley’s biography of Monk, and he describes how Monk’s recording sessions usually overran because he insisted on his sidemen learning all his new tunes by ear. Even if he had the music with him he refused to let them see the charts. When they complained, he said learning the tunes by ear would always lead to a better understanding and performance. Even Coltrane had to go through this when he played with Monk.

If they had trouble improvising on the tunes, he would tell them to forget about the chord changes and play something based on the melody, or on the rhythms of the melody.

Having ‘big ears’ was obviously of supreme importance for Monk.

Hmm. I'm not sure how much that has to do with 'big ears'. Learning stuff by listening rather than from a chart is more about getting the tune INTO you I think. Of course I wasn't there at these Monk sessions - if he refused to describe the chords then I could see that getting a bit more into the ears things, but learning a song by having someone play it and sort of describe it to you? I think that's just pretty normal. Also most pros do in fact have super good ears and so learning tunes by ear is pretty easy for them. Cool story either way though.

[rintincop]

What about musical memory? It’s a separate perhaps more important quality? Many people have perfect pitch, but Mozart was said to have had perfect musical memory. He could hear a piece and go home and write it down with all the counterpoint parts. I don’t know if it’s true.

i have Keyboard friends with perfect pitch to try to play jazz, but they’re very poor at it. I don’t have perfect pitch but I can play nice jazz piano.

My friend David K Mathews, keyboardist for Santana and a heck of a fine jazz soloists, has perfect Pitch and he tells me it doesn’t really help for playing jazz, in his opinion.

How about Rick Beato’s son, the kid with amazing perfect pitch? He doesn’t play changes as far as I know. Does he?

this thread raises more questions than answers in my head. I think defining what “big ears” even means is tricky

[rintincop]

To play a blues my mundane answer would be to know where the notes of the blues scale lay on your instrument. To Play Giant Steps my mundane answer would be to be able to remember the chord changes, and then be able to play them as arpeggio outlines, as Coltrane basically did ( he thru in some scale runs too, his 1235 motif, and a few short simple melodic turns of phrase)