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Interesting question. I definitely know the "oops" parts. And there are spots where I fell back on arpeggio like things. But maybe I don't quite understand your question?
Originally Posted by christianm77
Thanks for listening!
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06-05-2020 12:43 PM
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Actually I was pretty happy with the first 24 bars or so of the solo. Found myself falling back more into licks and patterns toward the end, got a bit confused right at the end.. Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm blocking out about 20 minutes or so every day to just put the backing track on repeat and I play the melody and just try to go all over with it.
Probably ruining a perfectly good song!
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I think it's good to take things you like and develop them. Don't feel you have to start with a tabula rasa each time.
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The funny thing is, when I try to simply play a melodic type of thing, develop an idea or play with a couple of pretty intervals, I find I'm really aiming at the Bmin7 Eb7 AbMaj7 moment and I pretty much ignore whatever that is in measure 3. But somehow I think I do need to have some tension or something there. Still can't figure out what the function of that measure is, what sort of tension it's creating. And then the Gm7 C7 in m. 4 I know it's moving to the Fm7, but somehow it just feels to me like a "false tonic" moment. Tagging the III chord on the way to the ii. Originally Posted by christianm77
But I seem to be making better progress just blundering along mainly by ear. I hear this crazy song in my head ALL DAY LONG now. Probably need to learn the words because "DUH duh, duh-duh duh duh duh.." gets boring even in my head.
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I cant say for sure of course about your hearing but... Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Measure 3 is ii-V... try to play it without bass line...
And following Gm7 (iii) chord is sort of sub for I chord...
Try to play Eb/G on it's place
It could be fun to play over 3 and 4 measures just as if it is ii-v-i in Eb major... to play subs or altered licks and all that
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Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
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Doing that example I noticed that the 3rd of F7 (A natural) and the 3rd of C7 (E natural) are the only 2 notes that are not diatonic to Eb.
So you could imply the essence of those chords just by shaping your line to include an A in bar 3 and an E in the second half of bar 4 (which is sort of what I have done).
I read an interview with Pat Metheny where he said he builds a lot of his lines from the 3rds of the chords, you can see why he does this!
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We seen to have written the same thing in a bit different words... Originally Posted by grahambop
Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
By the way I think that A nat in bar 3 is really not that necessary... it shows up there because of the A nat in the bass... if the soloist plays Ab it will not clash but would make rather a sort of tension
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Graham I'm really impressed you sat down and did this for me. Thank you. I"ll play around with this today. Thanks! Originally Posted by grahambop
Hi Lawson
I had a look at measures 3 and 4 of your chart to see what kind of line I might play to bring out those changes. I agree with Jonah, ignore those bass notes and just look at the chord functions.
F7 and Bb7 are just a ii-V in Eb.
Gm is a red herring, it is just Eb by another name.
C7 is just the V going to Fm.
Anyway I scribbled down an idea for a line you could play on those 2 bars (sorry did not have proper music paper to hand!). It is just an F7 arp going up from A natural, then a run down in Bb7 from the D. Then a bit of chromatic approach into the C7 (the 4th note in line 2 is an Eb, followed by E natural, I screwed it up a bit). Then a C7b9 arp going up from E. Takes you to a C for the Fm chord in bar 5.
Really it’s just basic ‘arp up, scale down’ stuff which tries to join up some chord tones, but it’s the kind of thing I would play. Anyway hope this gives you some ideas.
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No problem, I think I should have a go at recording this tune myself!
Haven’t really tackled it seriously before, although I have played through that Jimmy Raney solo from his book.
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I'd love to hear it. The phrase you wrote I've modified slightly by going on the F7 not to F but to G, the 9th. I love the 9th. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Since it is writing time...
I like also involving ii -v going to G-7 ...
it can be A-7 D7 (as if it is heading to major chord)
or A7b5 D7 (a minor ii - v) then in the example you will have Eb (not E nat)
It makes it a bit clashy over Bb7/Ab but the tension of D7 to G-7 is so strong that it overpowers it and gives a nice colour over Bb7 (maj7, 9, b13)
Here is a simple verision of it just to demonstrate the idea (no key signatures, all natural except where indicated)
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Thanks for that one!
I feel like I'm getting a seminar here!
One thing I've noticed here is that F9 played up at the 8th fret is also an Am7b5 or Cm6, so I'm thinking lines off of those chords could work. Also Bb7/Ab bears close resemblance to AbDim7, so diminished lines could work on that measure too.
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Well we know that b9 chord is also dim from its 3rd or 5th... it is the same thing alsmot. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And it can be used with almost anything anyhow - whtever sounds well to you
Yes, for F9 and Am7b5 (or Cm6) - it is quite common way to superimpose (Am7b5 is rootless F9) -- especially Barry Harris would have had something to say about it in particular)))
As for superimposition - though I see 7th chords too... I like thinking triads or intervals...
So for example with dominant chord you can think of
- m7b5 from 3rd
- dim triad from 3rd of dom (A dim triad)
- minor from 5th of dom (Cm triad)
Whats convinient about triad in this case - you can add any note to the triad and play around with these 4 notes... or mix them... it opens up some creativity
when you superimpose 7th chord you imply all 4 notes.. it can be limiting (not for everyone)Last edited by Jonah; 06-09-2020 at 02:44 PM.
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Here’s a nice version by Doug Raney from his debut album. Just guitar and bass (on this track).
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Doug Raney's playing is simply astounding. So creative, risky, and yet so clean and assertive. Wonderful tone, just excellent.
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Yes, and he was only 21 when he recorded that!
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reminds me to turn piano and drums OFF Band Box..
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Tal Farlow pretty much nails it too.
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I always loved Vince version... not that much line soloing here but it sounds cool
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lol yeah Doug’s version makes me think of trying it with bass only! Originally Posted by voxsss
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Originally Posted by grahambop
I always dreamt of finding a bassist to play duo with... my favourite setting for jazz guitar...
Doug's vesrion sounds so fresh and he does not strum a single chord while soloing..
I like that all linear playing/counterpoint - it has special character and expression
I remember Grant Green also did that in trio settings
Meanwhile .. Mike Stern
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Whoa. Just fell out of my chair. That's just mind-numbingly great. Originally Posted by Jonah
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When I’m confused about changes it helps to try to strip down to vanilla changes suggested by the melody. Here is Ralph Patt’s take on the vanilla changes in C.
Like Someone In Love (Ralph Patt Vanilla in C)
But there’s not a unique correct of vanilla changes for a melody. It’s just a process to go through to help make sense of the tune. Then compare the changes in your lead sheet to the vanilla chart you came up with. Where you see differences try to make sense of them as substitutions. You might prefer to to back to the vanilla chart and reharmonize the melody in your own way rather than follow the lead sheet. Of course, if playing in an ensemble you need to consider whether your chords are compatible with what bandmates are playing.
When I’m studying a busy lead sheet I tend to go through this process mentally, not necessarily writing my vanilla changes down. The process works well for me on the chart you provided.
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As other folks have mentioned, all the slash chords in the first section are really about a bass line that gets you from the tonic to the iim. I'm not sure if the below video is the original, but it's close. I hear that descending bass in the piano on the first A, but in the second A (which is just strings), I just hear some more tonal motion and no b5 half diminished chord.
It might help you to write some counterpoint against the bassline alone. A lot of other tunes use a variant of this motion (On Green Dolphin Street, My One And Only Love come to mind), but it's a bit unique to start the tune off here (or, it was in 1945!). Generally the more active the harmonic motion is, the simpler you can play and have it sound good. The bass has a beautiful descending line, so if you can find something simple that ascends without any clams, it's going to sound great!
I know it's reductionist, but I hear this tune as basically stuff in Eb going to the ii, then going from ii-V into the IV, then the VI major, going back to minor to get us back to Eb for the second half.
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