One way of thinking about Non Functional Harmony

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 03:55 AM

The 'mystical' view is that for truth, or the unknown, to appear the mind must be free of the past, which is knowledge; it has to be in a state of unknowing.

Musically, if we were in a state of unknowing when trying to negotiate Stella By Starlight, we'd soon be out of a job

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

The 'mystical' view is that for truth, or the unknown, to appear the mind must be free of the past, which is knowledge; it has to be in a state of unknowing.

Musically, if we were in a state of unknowing when trying to negotiate Stella By Starlight, we'd soon be out of a job

Wayne Shorter is a Zen Buddhist. AFAIK that’s very much how he looks at it.

Don’t we all want to be in a state of unknowing when playing music? That’s the best stuff. Everything else is just prep.

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 04:18 AM

Yes, I know all that but one has to be careful. There has to a certain abandonment when soloing over any tune. Someone who is playing by rote is merely imitating, which isn't creative. As you say, there has to be a certain absence of conscious deliberation but that only works when the prep has been thoroughly done, not just for that one tune but over years of playing.

**Jonah** · 05-13-2020, 04:31 AM

Wayne Shorter is a Zen Buddhist.

It is interesting...

I am definitely a fundamental christian culturally...

I remember I once discussed one famous quote from Faulkner: Between grief and nothing I will take grief.
My friend - a Buddhist - really did not get it... but for me it was obvious and natural.

that is why probably i sometimes feel too lose and frustrated when I listen to 'zen-ish' stuff in modern jazz (sometimes Frisell sounds like that but not always)... I need some kind of flesh and blood in art, intentsity of interaction between spiritual and material... and some suffering probably too.

That is why Bill does some things sometime taht seem too loose to me... but he just feel relaxed and has fun.
And I am just not capable

By the way Shorter mostly sounds very intensive to me...

On the other hand mysticims is represented in any relisgion. Actually mysticim to me is the only really active part of religion - the mechanics that delivers, all the rest is contemplative or preparatory.

And the Art is mysitc as well as act of creation.
In christian reality the artist imitates God. What can be mor mystic?

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 04:40 AM

In Christian reality the artist imitates God

We shouldn't really get into this on a music forum but, really, this is utterly confused. I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs but a moment's thought will tell us what's wrong with this sort of statement.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Yes, I know all that but one has to be careful. There has to a certain abandonment when soloing over any tune. Someone who is playing by rote is merely imitating, which isn't creative. As you say, there has to be a certain absence of conscious deliberation but that only works when the prep has been thoroughly done, not just for that one tune but over years of playing.

Well duh

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 04:47 AM

But then also - sometimes you just wing it and that can be good too. In practice if you are actually out there making music you don’t really have time to worry about that stuff. You have to get on with it.

i think Wayne found Zen useful as a practical tool for this. It is a pretty practical philosophy in many ways.

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-13-2020, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

We shouldn't really get into this on a music forum but, really, this is utterly confused. I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs but a moment's thought will tell us what's wrong with this sort of statement.

It's about the act of creation.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

It is interesting...

I am definitely a fundamental christian culturally...

I remember I once discussed one famous quote from Faulkner: Between grief and nothing I will take grief.
My friend - a Buddhist - really did not get it... but for me it was obvious and natural.

that is why probably i sometimes feel too lose and frustrated when I listen to 'zen-ish' stuff in modern jazz (sometimes Frisell sounds like that but not always)... I need some kind of flesh and blood in art, intentsity of interaction between spiritual and material... and some suffering probably too.

That is why Bill does some things sometime taht seem too loose to me... but he just feel relaxed and has fun.
And I am just not capable

By the way Shorter mostly sounds very intensive to me...

On the other hand mysticims is represented in any relisgion. Actually mysticim to me is the only really active part of religion - the mechanics that delivers, all the rest is contemplative or preparatory.

And the Art is mysitc as well as act of creation.
In christian reality the artist imitates God. What can be mor mystic?

i disagree - I think the effect of art is separate from its cause. The emotional state in its creation is not relevant to its effect as art. And most musicians respond a meditative flow type state when making music - as if the music had arrived from elsewhere (an ancient understanding.)

it was a Russian Christian who said ‘music is powerless to express anything at all.’

This is true. But most people enjoy a social performance around the idea that it is not. That’s one of the big contracts you sign as a musician.

If someone says ‘that was really moving, what was it about?’ it’s considered bad form to report: ‘I wasn’t really thinking anything.’

but that statement is not meant to diminish the emotional reaction someone has. That’s real and genuine. It’s more that people would really rather not ponder the gaps between us all when they felt something that felt like a connection. So the illusion has value.

**grahambop** · 05-13-2020, 05:06 AM

Lol this thread has gone all metaphysical or pataphysical or something.

Anyway it’s interesting that Shorter’s original lead sheet for Iris ended with a sort of functional turnaround (G7#9 then C9b5, implying a return to the Fm chord in bar 1), according to the book I mentioned. (By the way it has a detailed analysis of Iris, also a transcription of Wayne’s solo).

In the actual recording of course, this was changed.

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

It's about the act of creation.

Cosmic, our gods are our creation. That is, we've invented them. Creation implies something new, not regurgitated.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Lol this thread has gone all metaphysical or pataphysical or something.

Holy shit have you read an interview with Wayne? This is the shallows, baby.

Anyway it’s interesting that Shorter’s original lead sheet for Iris ended with a sort of functional turnaround (G7#9 then C9b5, implying a return to the Fm chord in bar 1), according to the book I mentioned. (By the way it has a detailed analysis of Iris, also a transcription of Wayne’s solo).

In the actual recording of course, this was changed.

interesting. Miles was a great editor and adapter of material.

The move bVI7 I is pretty functional too, just less obvious. You can probably think of dozens of standards that do that. Not so common in the last bar of a tune though, true.

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

it has a detailed analysis of Iris

Anything revelatory?

In the actual recording of course, this was changed

Possibly for the better, actually. G7/C7 - (Fm) sounds a bit lame.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Cosmic, our gods are our creation. That is, we've invented them. Creation implies something new, not regurgitated.

use whatever terminology makes you comfortable, secular or spiritual. The subjective experience of creativity shows remarkable consistency across the arts and as far as can tell, culture.

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 06:10 AM

I'm not saying human beings can't be creative, of course they can. But for the most part they're not, as evidenced by the state of the world.

Creation means something new brought into being. A mind steeped in its own particular culture producing works of art isn't necessarily creative; it's a form of re-invention. One isn't necessarily creative because one paints or plays an instrument.

It depends on the state of mind. Out of an empty mind - that is, an unoccupied mind, not a vacant one - can come the most extraordinary things. But they have come out of it, they haven't been invented by it, and there's a great difference.

**grahambop** · 05-13-2020, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Anything revelatory?

well one interesting point is that the theme of Iris is 16 bars but in the recording they added 9 bars during the solos, based on the chords at double the rate, so the whole form becomes 25 bars. But Shorter did not stick to this on his second chorus, so when Hancock started his solo they were all a bit unsure where they were in the form, and it took a few bars for them to decide on a consensus. The book has a transcription of the first bars of Herbie’s solo and Ron Carter’s bass line, showing how they gradually get back in sync.

I always thought Herbie’s solo starts a bit strangely, seems to sort of hang in the air as it were, until it gets going.

**grahambop** · 05-13-2020, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Holy shit have you read an interview with Wayne? This is the shallows, baby.

Yes I know Wayne is incomprehensible, hence Mr. Weird.

Actually it’s a shame his ‘Footprints’ biography doesn’t say much (as I recall) about his ideas about composition etc. (or maybe the author couldn’t understand what he said!).

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

well one interesting point is that the theme of Iris is 16 bars but in the recording they added 9 bars during the solos, based on the chords at double the rate, so the whole form becomes 25 bars. But Shorter did not stick to this on his second chorus, so when Hancock started his solo they were all a bit unsure where they were in the form, and it took a few bars for them to decide on a consensus. The book has a transcription of the first bars of Herbie’s solo and Ron Carter’s bass line, showing how they gradually get back in sync.

I always thought Herbie’s solo starts a bit strangely, seems to sort of hang in the air as it were, until it gets going.

Good, they're not perfect then :-)

**grahambop** · 05-13-2020, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Good, they're not perfect then :-)

The book has quite a few examples of this sort of thing. I guess it was inevitable, as their process seemed to be: arrive at the studio, see the lead sheet for the first time, immediately start making group changes to the tune, record it and then Miles would usually go for the first complete take without any obvious train-wrecks.

So they probably became very adept at immediately reacting to any mistakes/surprises and recovering from them.

Plus these were 5 guys with some of the best ears and reflexes in the business!

**ragman1** · 05-13-2020, 08:12 AM

Absolutely. Presented with the recorded version of Iris, or most tunes, we just accept them as they are.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I'm not saying human beings can't be creative, of course they can. But for the most part they're not, as evidenced by the state of the world.

Creation means something new brought into being. A mind steeped in its own particular culture producing works of art isn't necessarily creative; it's a form of re-invention. One isn't necessarily creative because one paints or plays an instrument.

It depends on the state of mind. Out of an empty mind - that is, an unoccupied mind, not a vacant one - can come the most extraordinary things. But they have come out of it, they haven't been invented by it, and there's a great difference.

interesting. examples?

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

The book has quite a few examples of this sort of thing. I guess it was inevitable, as their process seemed to be: arrive at the studio, see the lead sheet for the first time, immediately start making group changes to the tune, record it and then Miles would usually go for the first complete take without any obvious train-wrecks.

So they probably became very adept at immediately reacting to any mistakes/surprises and recovering from them.

Plus these were 5 guys with some of the best ears and reflexes in the business!

i think Miles liked the freshness... also the mistakes too.

I wonder sometimes if musicians don’t realise that the audience enjoys a bit of humanity in their music, a bit of imperfection.

**christianm77** · 05-13-2020, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Yes I know Wayne is incomprehensible, hence Mr. Weird.

Actually it’s a shame his ‘Footprints’ biography doesn’t say much (as I recall) about his ideas about composition etc. (or maybe the author couldn’t understand what he said!).

perhaps he’s not terribly interested in discussing it in that way.

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-13-2020, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Creation implies something new, not regurgitated.

My sympathies that your creativity is regurgitation.

**marvinvv** · 05-13-2020, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

i think Miles liked the freshness... also the mistakes too.

I wonder sometimes if musicians don’t realise that the audience enjoys a bit of humanity in their music, a bit of imperfection.

Yes, funny you should mention that, i been listening to Tal, and how sloppy he is sometimes, its great, love his playing i think Barney K is a bit like that , it gives the music as you say a bit of humanity, Listen to Miles @ plugged Nickle out of tune many times, but he just makes it into something else, amazing,