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Pat Metheny does it.
Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
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04-08-2020 03:35 PM
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Are you saying he's a rocker? LOL. I wouldn't put him in the class of Joey and Christian, but I dig his playing. Or a least I thouigh I did. Originally Posted by christianm77
The gig is from the Joey and Christian's... Philly Reunion Band thing. Something from their HS days back in Philly.
I don't remember the story... who cares.
No relationship to the thread... but nice version of Wes tune... Fried Pies... with Christians trio up in Washington
I still dig performing the tune...
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You know Kurt always has a prog rock vibe about his playing in a Holdsworth-esque sort of way; not that he isn’t a great jazz player. He’s leaned into it the past few years with this more woodwind like tone. Originally Posted by Reg
I just can’t imagine him doing something Motown-y really haha. It’s not really his thing?
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Cool...thanks, yea I guess that's why I never really finish listening to much of his music. I mean those reunion show gig posts at Blue Note in NY were some of the worst examples of Joey or Christian that I've heard in a while.
But that's just me...
If anyone is interested in learning how to Comp.... the accompany thing. Check out Peter Martin's playing behind Christian's solo. That's a perfect example of How To Comp behind a jazz Blues. Of course it would be different for different instruments... but the approach is how it's done.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...
it was his Purple beret that was playing not Kurt, yeah pretty rocky, the beginning was a joke, after a couple chorus he was repeating a lot of phrases, or re- organising them. I think Kurt is killer but thats was weak, Grant G could easily that tempo. ................................................Hi c Originally Posted by christianm77
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The ability to play fast is a tool. It's a tool I'd like to have in my tool box. Same with comping, good phrasing, being able to construct great chord melodies, etc. No need to be apologetic for having the ability to shred if it's done cleanly and fits and enhances the song.
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For me, a musician must be true to his personality. If you like Bop--great. If your prefer Chord-Melody--great. And, there are a few talented players that have the whole bag. However, if I had an hour to listen to JG, it would be chord-melody since after 10 minutes of high speed gymnastics, I'm ready to move on to something more satisfying than speed. Very few Boppers are lyrical players since lyricism,for me, gets lost when you're strictly playing chord changes up tempo as most, in my opinion, do. Here's Coltrane from his incredible album "John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman" playing "My One and Only Love." There's no way a musician can get this lyrical feeling and sentiment when playing at Indy 500 speed. Good playing . . . Marinero . . . I hope you enjoy!
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This I think is truly creative playing on the same prog at around 300: Originally Posted by Durban
Originally Posted by Reg
Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...
it was his Purple beret that was playing not Kurt, yeah pretty rocky, the beginning was a joke, after a couple chorus he was repeating a lot of phrases, or re- organising them. I think Kurt is killer but thats was weak, Grant G could easily that tempo. ................................................Hi c
isnt Lester’s time just the most extraordinary? How did he do it???
8th notes can be a real prison. Hence my other thread that no one got lol.
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Yeah, long strings of 8th notes at high tempos can get tedious. Originally Posted by christianm77
I wish I could do it.
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Yea... nice. lesters gets so far behing the beat... LOL. The rhythm section either stays locked in that straight backing time thing... like on 78 or if your able, (the rhythm section) can also stretch, expand and contract with the soloist. The down side is like on many of Scofield's tunes... the time actually slows down.
Speed is just another skill as said by many... But it doesn't just show up while soloing. I have Ok chops, but the majority of my technical skills are used when... not soloing. Being able to easily perform at 300mm is not difficult, but that's the point... easily perform. Making music isn't just about locking in and all the groove BS.... Locking in is really just the starting point. Musicians who have their technical skills together...are locked in when they start playing. Seems like too many get caught up in soloing as the point of speed of technical Skills. And maybe aren't even aware of what speed or technique is... Playing at 60mm or at 320mm is the same thing. Understanding subdividing and accent patterns.... and having the skills to easily perform them so your can be aware of the big picture... and hear the big picture.
When you don't have your technical skills together... you tend to think, (or hear) in the steady 8th thing, or getting that feel... there can be more.
Best to all
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Good god, I have never heard guitar like this! Instant Rosenwinkel fan! Originally Posted by christianm77
I must say I gravitate towards fast players, or rather, players with tremendous flow - who can just endlessly and often violently create music in the moment. Like Rosenwinkel in this clip.
Or Michael Brecker on this (from 5.00):
...or Russell Ferrante here (foreword by robben ford is burning also):
... or Robben Ford and George benson on this (Solos from about 2:00)
... Or anything featuring Joey DeFrancesco, that man is a monster beyond human comprehension...
I can't play like these guys, and it's frustrating me! In about two months time, I'll have an undergraduate degree in guitar performance, but even my slow ideas are shallow!
Speed to me, SHOULD be a fire of some kind, anger perhaps? Maybe that's why I don't feel the same thing from Frank Gambale as I do from say Mike Brecker, even if they're playing at the same breakneck speeds. It's hard to say exactly what it is, but I know good speed when I hear it - and bad speed when I hear it - like when I play as fast as I can and it's just licks and lines I know well... Gah!
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This instantly triggered a couple of thoughts Originally Posted by Reg
1) it’s always been a challenge to me as the usually sole guitar or sole comper in a swing band as a soloist I can’t take liberties with the time. So therefore I have to play, or feel I must, play very locked in, to keep the time going or the band is going to lose its groove.
I've been looking for a way to do this without playing running 8ths. Or chords.
2) some frontline players can’t half drag. I think they think it’s good time to do so, and it sounds more stylish than on top for sure. But it makes it a long night if I’m playing time.
3) I don’t think Lester is simply ‘behind the beat’ in this superficial way. as with Billie, I think this is an effect rather than a cause. He’s locking into something else. Something broader and less obvious but still connected. And we say ‘behind the beat’ because that’s how it seems to us; we can’t analyse what he’s doing but we can feel it relates.
Lester as one of the the most advanced rhythmic players of the era, probably all time, had a very specific concept. I don’t know if he could put it into words, but he did start as a drummer.
I think if you played with Lester, you wouldn’t slow down because his time is surprisingly commanding, it’s not laggy. The way he plays downbeats is very important.
I feel Dickie is leaning more on the rhythm section.
That’s my hunch. No evidence to support that lol other than my intuition lol.
according to legend the Basie band was a train wreck without Freddie so maybe that’s bollocks haha. (Most of the players on that side are Basie men.)
OTOH Lester cut Lady Be Good without a rhythm guitar, which was unusual at the time (and why that recording sounds so modern for the time.)
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Speed of itself is boring. It is what is around it that makes it's use. Just like a Set Tempo', or just a plane 2/4 beat Drum Cymbal. It is like you play Arpeggio at different tempos to make a rhythm.
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Not really. Speed is just form. It's about content. Good playing is always good, fast or slow. Weak playing is always weak, fast or slow. Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
And the only type of playing that is really boring is weak playing.
DB
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True! I suck equally at all tempos. So maybe it’s a mercy I cannot play very fast! Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
Also: You are making way too much basic sense for this to be the internet.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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great point about lester , christian and the whole lag behind the beat thing. and you went into some detail on another thread how he is relating to a kind of 6 or halftime 6 against it.
if a guy doesnt have it together, like you said, its a long night. for me, whether its trying to play behind the beat or putting out some linear lines, its how hard and definite you come back on the groove giving the direction to your band mates and the audience
some one said the groove doesnt matter on here, i disagree, its everything, its everything if you want to keep it together and have direction.
if your objective is not that , and exploration is more important , or lean more on sound base than form base, then fine, its differant rules for differant paramaters and its valid. im speaking for jazz that is still looking to keep in touch with the foundations set by the masters.
im telling you, im doing these ketu condomble things over all this early jazz , lots that has no drums, and they are so rhythm , groove oriented its not funny. the whole stride thing that is serious power and up tempo in the hands of james p johnson and art tatum, are throwing out phrases that are in a cadence , they keep repeating the cadence but with variations in the cadence.
speed without cadence, reference , direction, some kind of pivot point in the groove , and a seat belt could lead to a dangerous crash , or a road to nowhere
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As a former saxophonist, any guitar player(except a rare FEW) that hopes to replicate the speed of a saxophone will live a life of frustration and angst. Good playing . . . Marinero
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the Kenny was appalling..pity Pat wasnt there .knock some wind out of his sails...my take on Giant Steps with a computer and a sequencer..and a few samples...
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Hi, V, Originally Posted by voxsss
Was that computer generated? If so, the licks? I haven't heard that throaty flute playing since the 70's when the technique was very popular. Good playing . . . Marinero
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no not computer generated..cant remeber who wrote the part...i sequenced it..quite easy once you know how...retro flute sample added for bite...jethro or herbie mann..doubling up...
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The Kenny G video is a spoof by the way. Apparently he was playing one long note to show off (unaccompanied). Someone added the Giant Steps backing to the video for a joke. Originally Posted by voxsss
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Hi, G, Originally Posted by grahambop
For the record, circular breathing, for most, takes awhile to develop; some never get it. So, some players still use it as a "crowd- pleaser. However, I always found it annoying and not musical. Its heyday was in the 70's/80's. Good playing . . . Marinero
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So ironic. Guitarists and pianists are often criticized because we don't phrase like horn players,, allowing "breathing space" in our lines. And here you have horn players trying their best to eliminate the limits imposed by breathing.... Originally Posted by Marinero
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Hey Christian... I'll go through your points above,
1) So yea... if your the rhythm section, playing straight time is generally rhythm guitar. So developing... comping skills implies becoming aware of basic "Harmonic Rhythm" and then being able to expand that basic concept. You can keep "Time", (be locked in and in the groove), and still be performing a creative improvisational style part.
Using "Chord Patterns", Melodic Lead Lines, (Licks) and Rhythmic patterns or licks.... to imply Harmonic Rhythm "Targets".....) the organized attacks of the expanded Harmonic Rhythm which imply the Groove, the feel, the montuno etc...
These... "Expanded Harmonic Rhythm Targets" are what Imply and create the feel and Perception of Repeat. That perception of Repeat is what will give you more freedom to have fun... your "take liberties".
The time expands from, 1,1,1,1,1,1, or 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, etc... and becomes counting or feeling with 2 bars or 4 bars
units of counting, phrasing or feeling.
The "locking in" point as I said above, is just part of playing, Obvious, like turning on your amp. I'll expand on in next few points.
2) Work on your band Directing skills. If they don't feel it... physically tell them. I do all the time, use your Respectful communication skills... it usually gets better. (obviously... you do need to be able to back it up with your playing)
3) So what's the point of getting behind the Beat? To create a feel..... It's not that complicated. To take the time to notate out playing and analyze behind beat feels, (using triple division and subdivisions), would be an Oxymoron.
You could... but not many would be able to read... and still have feel. So generally most musicians use the above mentioned techniques to help create longer sections of "time"...to count, (feel) with. Which is what creates that mystical compound time feeling of playing behind the beat.
The other important aspect of creating feels, both macro and micro... is which attack or beat is implied or referenced by another attack. The On Coming or the Previous beat. (depending on note values and subdivisions).
And yes... just like other aspect of playing, all it takes is organized practice.
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Ah OK - so you think I’m asking to have a problem solved/advice. That's fair enough given the wording, although that wasn’t really the intention of my post, more to say - here is something I find interesting and I’m working on. Originally Posted by Reg
thanks for the info though! if I understand what you mean this is all stuff I am aware of if not always able to execute to my satisfaction.
A couple things specific to the problem I'm talking about.
1) I am not the leader in these situations. I rarely lead if ever lead straight up swing/traddy gigs because that's not my main area of interest. I get called to do them.
2) the biggest problem I face when soloing in this kind of context is not sounding like straight ahead jazz. This might not be a worry for most, but for the type of thing where the style is almost defined in contrast to modern jazz this can be an issue. When the rhythm guitar drops out and the rhythm section are playing in a fairly straight ahead way (legato walking bass, or god forbid ride cymbal spangalang with snare drum accents) for instance. It shouldn't really be MY problem, but in practice it ends up being haha. In general the solution is to play chords, riffs and avoid too many 8th note lines.
(In this case even a Louis and the All Stars feel - which is many drummer's reference point for anything not bop - can be ... arggh! NO! Not that shit with the backbeat and ride cymbal. Louis did not have a rhythm guitar in that band and this was the '50s... OMG. Just listen to some drummers of the prewar era. PLEASE.)
Anyhoo, basically, if you have a rhythm section and soloist who aren't playing with the specific 30s/40s jazz rhythmic concept (Bonsritmos would say Opanije vs Bravum...) it falls to me to provide the quality for the audience and bandleader that will keep it in the stylistic realm and with enough of that groove. And as long as there is a strong danceable groove with some regularity and not just some generic version of Philly Joe Jones comping on a Miles date (because that's what swing feel is, right?), I can deal with it.
(BTW I'm 200% certain PJJ would have been able to nail this type of thing had the gig required it. This is what he grew up with, like most of those guys.)
So: the 'behind the beat' stuff always sounds like modern jazz when done on guitar. (As I say, I don't think Prez really plays behind the beat.) But the guitar can't really do that... There is a job of work to be done.
The fact that I give a shit about the second point AT ALL I suspect is probably why I continue to get calls for this music haha (and I know the rep.)
In its own way modern jazz is much more forgiving. I think you can do more the Lester thing too... Lester was the future in the 30s, music changed to imitate him...Last edited by christianm77; 04-14-2020 at 12:45 PM.
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