E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker

[Reg]

Hey Christian... thanks for the kid things... they shaped my like and made many choices for me...yada yada

Anyway... take a tune, any tune, one you like. record yourself soloing ... take two 4 bar sections.... what you hear as the best and what you don't like, not wrong notes just doesn't sound that great.

Then voice those 4 bar solo phrases out with 5 part sax section... you could add a bass line.

I've been doing this for 40 years... really. The process really cleaned up my ears... not that I don't still play shit and screw everything up all the time... I really like being the edge of crash and burn, when I can.
(I'm not implying your ears need cleaning) lol. Back in the 70's we were into that super sax thing... arranging existing solos...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

do you think it’s possible that
different people need different
learning methods ?

chordscales
arps
BH
Joe Pass ‘ignore the 2 chord’
someone else ‘ignore the V chord’

Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.

[christianm77]

Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.

It’s true. I’ve seen it happen.

[christianm77]

Hey Christian... thanks for the kid things... they shaped my like and made many choices for me...yada yada

Anyway... take a tune, any tune, one you like. record yourself soloing ... take two 4 bar sections.... what you hear as the best and what you don't like, not wrong notes just doesn't sound that great.

Then voice those 4 bar solo phrases out with 5 part sax section... you could add a bass line.

I've been doing this for 40 years... really. The process really cleaned up my ears... not that I don't still play shit and screw everything up all the time... I really like being the edge of crash and burn, when I can.
(I'm not implying your ears need cleaning) lol. Back in the 70's we were into that super sax thing... arranging existing solos...

Ha im certain they do. That sounds like a fun exercise I may well give it a go.

[djg]

Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.

pat would play either Gm or Bbm

or Gm into Bbm

[christianm77]

So, some Bergonzi again. This time from Chord Scale chapter in his Volume 6 book: "A Zen approach would be to pick the scale that sounds best to you."

I think that would be the non complete bullshit approach, pace Bergonzi lol. But people like to be spoonfed stuff, they don’t trust themselves. I think part of it is to teach them to make their own decisions and have their own preferences.

[christianm77]

pat would play either Gm or Bbm

or Gm into Bbm

And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

pat would play either Gm or Bbm

or Gm into Bbm

That's okay, then! Bbm is thinking altered over the V chord. But to me that is thinking "V", not "ii".

[djg]

And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)

no scale. i have not heard him calling it a topic but it makes sense. in linear expressions he calls it an activity.

to me they are "bebop gestures" organized in minor. it's just his personal way to spin lines. it's almost like pretending not to voice-lead if you know what i mean. but you can't convert to martino-minor if you cant tell a II chord from a VI chord. which makes it a dangerous concept for beginners

[djg]

That's okay, then! Bbm is thinking altered over the V chord. But to me that is thinking "V", not "ii".

there is no thinking involved

[pingu]

And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)

thats how i roll too ...

‘Gm stuff’
‘Bbm stuff’ etc

im not particularly conscious of
which min scale i’m using
it’s just min stuff

im not saying i’m right to do that
its just what works best for me

if Martino does that too ie ‘topics’
then that very validating , thanks

he sure can play !
that Oleo on 12 string is phenomenal to me

[bengruven]

pat would play either Gm or Bbm

or Gm into Bbm

Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?

There are quite a few to observe here (not all the same key but that shouldn’t be a big obstacle):


I’m partial to this one, because it has some nice “wrong” notes in it.



Here’s the whole thing:

alone-together-pat-martino.pdf

[djg]

Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?

i don't wonder because i did check it out 25 years ago


bar 22 is actually Am into A7. so the only slightly odd note is the passing note F#.

[bengruven]

i don't wonder because i did check it out 25 years ago


bar 22 is actually Am into A7. so the only slightly odd note is the passing note F#.

Ah, well I sincerely beg your pardon, Sir; I do apologize.

That being said, I think there is more to be learned from that solo than any variant of CST is ever going to get you to.

[djg]

Ah, well I sincerely beg your pardon, Sir; I do apologize.

That being said, I think there is more to be learned from that solo than any variant of CST is ever going to get you to.

you dont have to convince me of that. you're barking up the wrong tree.

[rintincop]

[rintincop]

[rintincop]

[rintincop]

[rintincop]

[rpjazzguitar]

But the idea of ‘ill fitting notes’ I don’t like that as a way of thinking.


TL;DR nothing wrong with learning licks!

What player doesn't address the issue of "ill-fitting notes"?.

Take, for example, a tune as simple as All of Me. Cmaj then goes to E7. You can outline that change by moving the G to G#. You don't have to. You might find a line that allows you to play G as the #9 over E7, but if you are trying to play a simple, straightforward, non-challenging line, G over E7 may be an ill fit. Chord then changes to A7. You can still think about being in C tonal center, but now you have to move the C to C#. You could play C, but the same considerations apply. When the D7 moves to G7, the F# is going to be an ill fit. You even have to consider how the octave you choose for the note affects the fit.

Doing it this way requires that you know the fingerboard and you know the notes in the chords you use, both instantly. It doesn't mesh perfectly with what seems to be a common way players learn to cover chords -- which, apparently, involves learning fingering patterns and playing out of them. I could be wrong about that since I'm not speaking from my own experience in making this statement. Of course, over time, different approaches can lead to the same goal.

Back to All of Me. Alternatively, you could decide to play 5th mode A harm min over the E7, and 5th mode D melodic minor over the A7, etc. which amounts to exactly the same thing, but with Greek names.

Andre Bush, since passed, advocated a system of 12 notes, all equal. Everybody else makes judgements about quality of fit.

The advantage of thinking this way is that you focus on the voice leading. C Ionian to A Harmonic Minor changes one note. I think it's worthwhile to think about what that movement is. If someone learns that using the Greek names, that's fine. I learned it by tonal center and adjustments.

As far as hearing my playing goes, I've posted a bunch of mp3s.

[christianm77]

Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?

There are quite a few to observe here (not all the same key but that shouldn’t be a big obstacle):


I’m partial to this one, because it has some nice “wrong” notes in it.



Here’s the whole thing:

alone-together-pat-martino.pdf

Theres some good examples of the G dominant scale on Bm7b5 E7b9 in that solo. The G-F#-F move which the hoi polloi might call the bebop scale (urgh!)

G Dom on E7 gives you the #9...

[djg]

Theres some good examples of the G dominant scale on Bm7b5 E7b9 in that solo. The G-F#-F move which the hoi polloi might call the bebop scale (urgh!)

G Dom on E7 gives you the #9...

bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

theory is just a way to organize language.

[christianm77]

bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

theory is just a way to organize language.

Not sure if I understand how that works.

But I do think it's illustrative that I could sit down and look at the Martino solo from the perspective of Barry Harris when I know for a fact he doesn't think that way.

I was think that Martino might think of a sort of minor bebop thing - dorian or mel minor with an added major 3rd.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

theory is just a way to organize language.

I like the symmetry in bars 14 to 15: C D F | E C# B
You shift down a fret and play the three notes in reverse.