A Pentatonic Approach to Jazz Guitar Soloing

[JensL]

Limiting your scale choices because you want to have 2 notes per string is a silly idea. Don't let technique determine the possible number of scales available to you. Instead of coming up with all these systems practice your major scales and learn to play over changes with them using arpeggios.

If it is so important to add chromatic notes then mayb it is because you lack some of those in the scale in the first place (ie. you really hear 7 note scales but try to adapt your pentatonic system) Avoid notes are have a purpose too in music (because they are not aboid notes all the time...)

If you are afraid of playing modes with avoid notes (f.ex b2) then play with only arpeggio notes, they are also easy to play 2 notes per string...)

If you are in a situation of "blind improvisation" then go learn the changes!

I guess I am not so much harsh as plain rude, but you are making systems of scales and making choices that you, as your say yourself, as a beginner can't make.

You are probably better off pracitising improvising than making systems of scales. That is my opinion as a teacher anyway...

Jens

[FatJeff]

The Dominant Pentatonic is just another mode of the Lydian Pentatonic. The following scales are just different modes of the same scale, and thus have the same fingerings. So if you learn one of them, you learn all others by default. The sound implied by the assigned name is outlined through the context it is being applied in; such as the chords they're being played over.

Lydian Pentatonic (over any major chord)
R 2 3 5b 6
Dominant Pentatonic (over any dominant chord)
R 2 3 5 7b
Suspended Minor Pentatonic (over any minor chord)
R 2 4 6b 7b
Dorian Pentatonic (over any minor chord)
R 3b 4 5 6
Locrian Pentatonic (over any minor chord, preferably a min7b5)
R 3b 5b 6b 7b

The confusion here is that different modes of the same scale are not put in a sequence in the list, and not explicitly reflecting the fact that they are modes to each other, but I did that intentionally...

OK, I see what you mean now. I'll try playing around with the dominant pent today and see if it does anything for me.

I might point out that - for me, at least - I don't like the idea of "modes" all being the same to one another. When I play a dorian scale, I'm thinking dorian, not "I'm playing the second mode of major". So for my way of thinking, all these pentatonics really are 5 new scales, not just 1.

[alphekkai]

OK, I see what you mean now. I'll try playing around with the dominant pent today and see if it does anything for me.

I might point out that - for me, at least - I don't like the idea of "modes" all being the same to one another. When I play a dorian scale, I'm thinking dorian, not "I'm playing the second mode of major". So for my way of thinking, all these pentatonics really are 5 new scales, not just 1.

Great Idea ! I'm sure you will like that one specifically - it actually is the one that triggered me doing that whole thing the first place. The fact that using it in the Lydian mode (over a Major chord) sounded completely different than in the dominant mode (over a Dominant 7th chord).

I agree that they could be thought of as different scales, because they really do have different sounds. But technically speaking on the guitar, you can play the same melodic line on different chords to get different sounds, so they can be thought of all being the same scale as well

[FatJeff]

Great Idea ! I'm sure you will like that one specifically - it actually is the one that triggered me doing that whole thing the first place. The fact that using it in the Lydian mode (over a Major chord) sounded completely different than in the dominant mode (over a Dominant 7th chord).

I agree that they could be thought of as different scales, because they really do have different sounds. But technically speaking on the guitar, you can play the same melodic line on different chords to get different sounds, so they can be thought of all being the same scale as well

True, but melodic lines are usually crafted with certain tones (often chord tones) being highlighted. Moving the same lick from one mode to another may or may not be successful. I guess one would have to experiment.

[paulkogut]

Steve Khan has a great book on pentatonics, as well as a great book on contemporary chord voicings. There's info on his website Steve Khan Books

(Poke around his website, there's an incredibly generous section of transcriptions and the discography offers a lot of insights to his approach to recording)

[brwnhornet59]

Joe Diorio's books are amazing as well. He is a master craftsman with pent...

[JakeAcci]

1- A scale lacking half steps will almost always guarantee to have a two notes per string fingering throughout the entire fingerboard, and thus easier to finger, bend, string-skip, tap, apply really complex odd patterns, etc... and hence what I previously mentioned "more melodic control", slightly

This is waaaaay too subjective to state as a rule, and I just flat out think you are incorrect. The pentatonic scale I described can be played with 2 notes per string pretty easily, and I don't think 2NPS necessarily makes any of things you describe any easier.

2- A scale with two notes per string will allow you to use chromatics in a more standard, understandable way: before the first note, between the two notes and after the second note, and will allow a beginner to 'know' how the chromaticism would sound like during improvisation.

I just disagree with you here.

I think it's extremely convoluted to try to invent pentatonic scales that intentionally exclude half steps so that you can make chromaticism easier for yourself. Honestly, I'm all for experimenting and coming up with theories and ideas, and I get the path you are trying to go down, but I think your time would be better spent

1. Doing ear training
2. Learning how some of the 'masters' have already put pentatonic scales (and other material) to use

Your speaking of improvisation in a very theoretical model. Again, not to be harsh, but it seems like once you just learn more about some very conventional principles of melodic jazz vocabulary you might realize that your efforts here might not be guiding you in the best direction. I think the spirit of trying to organize your thinking is great, but...well, more on that later

3-A scale with one or more semi-tones will render one or more modes with a flat 2nd, which can mainly be used to get a 9b over a dominant chord, but not much else. This usage requires an advanced player to use during improvisation.

Again, if you are trying to invent pentatonic scales just to make things easier for yourself, I'd say to just stop right now. Conventionally speaking, you don't want to look for scales that you can use for going into auto-pilot mode...you always want to be using your ears and hearing the function of each tone you play against the harmony of the band.

4-By blind improvisation, I mean a situation where your not quite sure of the changes. Forgive my language, I'm not a native English Speaker.

Similar to the above, if you don't know the changes, your systems of pentatonic scales are NOT going to help you. You need to simply know those changes. Knowing scales without half steps will do you know good if you don't know the tune.

Big picture: I've had a habit of doing what I can see you are doing now. You want to get to that next place of music-making and you think you can use your brain and invent new systems or organizational methods to get you there quickly. More often then not, the answer is simply playing music and listening to music rather than coming up with theories or techniques.

I think experimentation and thinking outside the box is great, but to be honest, it sounds like you don't have enough knowledge or experience with harmonic improvisation to be able to develop good systems that will help you or others. Maybe I'm wrong. Keep it simple - learn about the conventional uses of pentatonic scales in jazz. Analyze many heads, solos, melodies, chord changes, etc. I guarantee if you do this then your perspective and goals with pentatonic scales will change drastically.

[brwnhornet59]

alphekkai, I do not see anything wrong with your system as far as having it at your command to play certain lines the way that you hear them. Also I feel that Jake and JensL are giving you some very important and solid insight into playing jazz..They are right to point out that one technique or approach, in and of itself, is no shortcut to vocabulary and knowing the road map.

So I think the implied usage as an overall "this is it" method is where the rub lies..organizational systems are just reference points that can tend to become heavily relied on when one does not see/hear the bigger picture. Stating that pent with semitones is counter intuitive to playing chromatic's is a highly subjective statement that I do not agree with either. In the end it is all how you have it categorized and labeled. I am not a believer in avoid notes either...

When you put restrictions on yourself it is usually done to free up less developed aspects of ones playing (at least that is how I use restriction) for insight. When you box yourself in with a system solely for organization and ease, you exclude a lot of important aspects that abound, limiting your endgame.

In the end it is all what you want to do, what anyone else thinks is moot. I would think that bebop scales might be an interesting research for you as you develop. Take what you know and try and correlate it with accepted jazz theory and practices. I think you will make much greater progress by opening up your horizon, not restricting it to what you already know, which is basically what these guys are telling you...IMHO...

Good luck.

[alphekkai]

alphekkai, I do not see anything wrong with your system as far as having it at your command to play certain lines the way that you hear them. Also I feel that Jake and JensL are giving you some very important and solid insight into playing jazz..They are right to point out that one technique or approach, in and of itself, is no shortcut to vocabulary and knowing the road map.

So I think the implied usage as an overall "this is it" method is where the rub lies..organizational systems are just reference points that can tend to become heavily relied on when one does not see/hear the bigger picture. Stating that pent with semitones is counter intuitive to playing chromatic's is a highly subjective statement that I do not agree with either. In the end it is all how you have it categorized and labeled. I am not a believer in avoid notes either...

When you put restrictions on yourself it is usually done to free up less developed aspects of ones playing (at least that is how I use restriction) for insight. When you box yourself in with a system solely for organization and ease, you exclude a lot of important aspects that abound, limiting your endgame.

In the end it is all what you want to do, what anyone else thinks is moot. I would think that bebop scales might be an interesting research for you as you develop. Take what you know and try and correlate it with accepted jazz theory and practices. I think you will make much greater progress by opening up your horizon, not restricting it to what you already know, which is basically what these guys are telling you...IMHO...

Good luck.

I understand and agree with every word you say. The only problem with what you and Jake and JensL are thinking is that I see that you are assuming that I'm putting a restriction on myself, while I'm only putting the restriction on the system.

If I decide to study and use the melodic minor in general, and the altered usage in specific, then it will be wrong to try to put the "no semi-tone" restriction on that system, it wouldn't make any sense (as all would agree upon), it will deviate from the actual and ultimate target. But then you might have to impose another restriction - that it needs to be used over functioning dominants (which can be implicit or explicit), which really does make sense.

Some restrictions make sense more than others, I agree. The reason why you put constraints on a system the first place is to limit its possibilities, to facilitate its study it in this form.

1- This restriction doesn't have to remain forever
2- This restriction doesn't have to be applied to other systems
3- This restricted system can be used besides and within other systems (in the same bar, even)

So it really is a grouping mechanism to facilitate study.

Thanks for the Bepop scale recommendation! it really does sound like an interesting topic to study. Thanks!

[JohnW400]

Jeff, though not on his list, give this scale a whirl:

A C D Eb G

It's just an A minor pentatonic with a flatted fifth, .

I's also a mode of the Kumoi scale which is a major pentatonic with a flatted 3rd

C D Eb G A.

sort of a 'tonic minor' pentatonic scale


I've mentioned it before but if you want to make quick pentatonic scales just add some sort of 2, 4 or 6 to a 7th arpeggio (and it's inversions)

Cma7 + b2 = C Db E G B
C7 + #4 = C E F# G Bb

I found this one useful :

C ma7 b5 + #5 =

C E F# G# B

Lots of altered sounds there as well as A mi/ma9, F#mi11b5 , D13#11 ect.


I've found that it easier to look at unusual or not the standard pentatonics this way.

[Philco]

3 pentatonics I use all the time: minor (1 b3 4 5 b7), minor b5 (1 b3 4 b5 b7) and minor with a nat 3rd (1 3 4 5 b7). Can someone tell me if it's possible to post PDF's? If so, I'll pop thru my usages for min and min b5 pents. Dominant pent (or whatever you want to call it) can be used harmonically and melodically over ANY of the 4 common heptatonics (maj / mel min / harm min / harm maj) starting from the 5th degree of each of these scales.

Welcome aboard Dixon. Great to have you on the list. I find your videos to be a valuable resource and I spent many hours with your Melodic Minor series.
It makes a hugh difference when the teacher can "play the talk" with taste and technique.

Regarding posting .pdf's, I don't know the exact method but I note other people doing it. My guess is that you do the same as if you were inserting a photo.

[monk]

There is a lot of material already available on applying pentatonics to improvisation in jazz. Ramon Ricker, Jerry Bergonzi, Bruce Saunders, Gary Campbell have all written books discussing this subject as well as the aforementioned Steve Khan. All these guys can play and know what they're talking about.

Time is precious. Anyone interested in pentatonic improvisation should investigate their work to save time and possibly avoid trying to reinvent the wheel.

Pentatonics can be a useful tool. Eddie Lang used them in the 1930s and so did Dick McDonough but that was only a part of their tool kit. I don't think pentatonics alone will suffice even for modern playing. Just my opinion.

[momotor]

Just came across this post and watched Dr Lemos' video. I must say this sounds like a very practical system for a beginning improvisor like myself. Seems like one could get a lot of mileages from just 1 fingering, the dorian pentatonic mode 1, which covers all ii-V progression if I'm not mistaken. I played with this fingering and was able to play some lines that sounds good to me immediately. I do have one confusion after reading the reviews at Amazon, which mentioned there are 11 types of pentatonic scales and becomes 132 when multiplied by 12 keys. It seems to me the fingering is movable though so one fingering already applies to every key, right? Furthermore, it seems to me that one could start using the system for improvisation after learning only a few fingerings, as Dr. Lemos suggested in #14 regarding Satin Doll. Am I missing something here?

[CastelE]

I bought your book today. It looked really interesting and pretty cheap i must say?.

I feel stuck in a rud lately playing similar things constantly. I'm not a jazz guitarist and I try to free play on an type of music i hear. I feel this book will take me to the next level of playing across scales and make it possible to apply it to any type of music. Looking forward to it!

Found this group bacause of it. Will be reading up on jazz.

Thnx!

[tomems]

Hello petepachio, Thank you so much for purchasing my book. I deeply appreciate your support. If you haven't already done so, please check out my YouTube videos on the Dorian, Mixolydian, and Ionian Pentatonic Scales. These were all done after the book got published. Also, when you get the book, please email me directly at:

rlemos@calstatela.edu

I have put together a 1 page ERRATA sheet on a few typos that I have found in the book (nothing major). Also, please feel free to contact me at any time regarding questions or comments.

Thank you once again,

Ron

I am only now digging into this excellent book. Unfortunately, the author Ron passed away in 2012. I wish I could have thanked him for this excellent contribution to popular jazz guitar literature.

Does anyone here have the ERRATA sheet? It would be great to see posted here. It doesn't look like it's on the Hal Leonard webpage.

Ron's obit, an accomplished guy, with and without his guitar. I bet one of the reasons he's so good at explaining things to people like me is he's got a regular day job... (no offense to any real musicians out there!)
In Memoriam | Cal State LA