Moving across positions: motivation

[WinnPine]

Please share with me your thoughts what really makes you move across the fretboard when you solo.
I understand that for those of you with solid impro skills and large soloing experience this question could be hard to answer. You move because your intuition and musical impulse of the moment leads you one way or another from one position to the next including changing key areas on the fly as needed per a tune's harmony.

Let's start here:
I watches a Ron Eschette's episode on YT recently and he emphasized that in order to cover all 12 keys you only need to stay within any 6 frets frame.

Actually, I re-read what I just wrote and I see that my question is pointless. Anyway, I'll post it to justify the time spent on typing this in

[christianm77]

That’s a very interesting question!

[Torito]

Please share with me your thoughts what really makes you move across the fretboard when you solo.

Well, you move to a different octave, and one tends to move to a higher octave when building up towards a climax.

[WinnPine]

That would mean that at the beginning of a solo you predominantly start low to leave some room for the climax?
I need to watch more YT vids of pros soloing to see where they usually begin...

However, guitar's nature assumes you can play the same phrasing up and down the neck. That would of course translate to a different tone color but I'm far below the level for taking that into consideration.

[Torito]

That would mean that at the beginning of a solo you predominantly start low to leave some room for the climax?

Yes, that's right. You change octaves and also timbre, because the 3 lower strings are wound and the top three aren't. To create a climax, if you notice players tend to go to higher registers. Also, rhythmic complexity, repetitions of a motif, variations of a motif, being surprised by a choice of scale,etc. help in building up towards the climax, it's not just the change of octave.

[ragman1]

Simply to get higher sounds, if I'm honest. Start low, work high.

[ragman1]

The post above was my first thought, but...

It's also to do with ease of playing and control of the sounds. Say you're playing over an open Am and you want to play E, G, A. Rather than play an open E, it's far easier to play the E on the 2nd string. It feels stronger and it's easier to hit the G and the A afterwards, the hand's in a more natural position.

Also arpeggios are easier in one position. Say a whole Bb7. Who wants to start on the 5th string, 1st fret, when you can start on the 6th and just go across the board?

Some lines are far easier in closed positions. Also you have much greater control over what you're playing.

Also, different positions for the same chord open up different possibilities of lines. You wouldn't play the same sort of lines at the open position as you would at the 5th or the 10th. They would come out differently. Same notes, different lines, because of the positioning of the hand.

Also notes on the inner strings sound different than on, say, the 1st or 2nd. On the 3rd and 4th strings they sound fuller and richer, more mellow.

Those are some of the reasons - ease, control, and tone.

Plus, of course, it's boring to stay in one place all the time. You have 12/15 frets, may as well use them. Providing you know what to do with them, of course

[ragman1]

Ron Eschette's episode on YT recently and he emphasized that in order to cover all 12 keys you only need to stay within any 6 frets frame.

Technically speaking, completely correct. In real life, tedious, limited and boring :-)

Sure, those patterns exist, but you've got apply them to something. No running up and down mechanically.

Play good lines. Get melodic. Sound nice!

[mhch]

The post above was my first thought, but...

It's also to do with ease of playing and control of the sounds. Say you're playing over an open Am and you want to play E, G, A. Rather than play an open E, it's far easier to play the E on the 2nd string. It feels stronger and it's easier to hit the G and the A afterwards, the hand's in a more natural position.

Also arpeggios are easier in one position. Say a whole Bb7. Who wants to start on the 5th string, 1st fret, when you can start on the 6th and just go across the board?

Some lines are far easier in closed positions. Also you have much greater control over what you're playing.

Also, different positions for the same chord open up different possibilities of lines. You wouldn't play the same sort of lines at the open position as you would at the 5th or the 10th. They would come out differently. Same notes, different lines, because of the positioning of the hand.

Also notes on the inner strings sound different than on, say, the 1st or 2nd. On the 3rd and 4th strings they sound fuller and richer, more mellow.

Those are some of the reasons - ease, control, and tone.

Plus, of course, it's boring to stay in one place all the time. You have 12/15 frets, may as well use them. Providing you know what to do with them, of course

+1 : shifting positions brings a natural and easy way to change the tone as well as the played phrases.

Another reason: replicating a phrase , usually short, but with notes shifted by some interval, say minor thirds

[TOMMO]

To me it's how you get from one note to another - regardless of style - that shapes the way a phrase, melody or line sounds. Stay in one position there's probably not much colour - go all the way along the neck you will incorporate a lot of slide, hammer-ons and pull ofs for example.

[christianm77]

I’m wondering how in charge of this I am, and conscious of the reasons why I change position.

Of course on stage it’s good not to give it a thought, but when practising it is good to develop more freedom.

Playing in position is an obvious way to practice it, obviously I do that. However there are a lot of things that are automatic.

[rpjazzguitar]

I try to think of a melodic idea and execute it. I don't usually think about position.

That said, there are times, usually at high tempo in unfamiliar harmonic territory, that I may resort to thinking about chord grips, or scales, or arps which may lead me to move to a position in which I don't have to think too hard.

I often use high notes to build drama within a solo. It's one of several devices I use, given that I don't have the chops to lift a solo with pure speed. As an aside, this led me to spend a lot of time and energy thinking about how to make high notes sound full and thick -- rather than thin and tinny.

[pauln]

...what really makes you move across the fretboard when you solo...to cover all 12 keys you only need to stay within any 6 frets frame.

The direct way to get some insight on this question is to look and listen to an example in order to see and hear. Wes is a perfect example because he moves all over the finger board continuously and does not seem to regard positions as such. The video shows everything...

- the first note of the first phrase is an open string
- not spending much time looking at the neck, just a glance before phrases
- sliding some phrases
- making repeated chromatic phrases
- making chromatic sliding arpeggio double stops
- making sequential chromatic hammer-on
- octaves moving around
- the big move up the neck in prep for the solo

If you play guitar and watch Wes you notice and recognize that he is thinking ahead... his choices for where to play tend to place his hand where the next phrase picks up... (this is why he does not look at his hand all the time) naturally physically mechanically strategic and tactical, resulting in a relaxed confident sound and feel.

There have been many popular Jazz guitarists to whom I personally cannot endure listening because their sound and feel was nervous, labored, and tense, as if they were having trouble selecting and playing the notes, difficulty keeping up with the song, so impairing the sound and feel of the song. Even though they were not, it was as if they were struggling to down pick every note. This is especially curious because they were clearly alternate picking, yet the sound of Wes basically down-thumbing never had this problem sound.

My sense is that these people were attempting to employ some method similar in part to the idea that moving around is not necessary if you know your note names, scale names and the notes they comprise, chords etc., and you adopt fingerings that minimize position shifting on the instrument. Technically, many things can be done that way, but maybe those things are coming from a less gutaristic source - pure theory, or theory from a piano perspective (piano examples), or the borrowing of examples from horn transcriptions, maybe?

If you look at the list of Wes things above, you should see that the choice to hold position would be awful - because Wes was a guitaristic guitarist. He played with the mechanics of the instrument, not against its mechanics. Similarly, he fingered with the mechanics of his hand, not against its mechanics... the list expresses techniques that naturally emerge from the nature of the guitar and the nature of the hand, for which holding position works against the guitar and the hand.

- sliding some phrases
(when you slur notes, you may stretch or shift out of position, especially multiple slurs in a phrase)

- making repeated chromatic phrases
(holding one position might be technically possible, but awkward at best)

- making chromatic sliding arpeggio double stops
(this technique is a natural position buster)

- making sequential chromatic hammer-on phrases
(another position stretcher/buster)

- octaves moving around
(and another, the constraint of playing octaves confounds position boundaries)

- the big move up the neck in prep for the solo
(how are you going to create that anticipation in one position?)

etc... listen and watch his solo carefully, it is quite beautiful and amazing... try to see and hear how and why he played it like that.

Ultimately, I suppose there is also the "mechanics" or nature of the mind... in addition to the hands and the instrument, some methods and some people's minds will find they work against each other, others that they work with each other.

[wolflen]

Wes..and many others learn the melody..in all positions..so there are no blind spots on the fretboard for the tune they are playing..

your point that some players reveal hesitation in their playing .. and that could be for many reasons..the tune was not rehersed well or other reasons

the group with Wes KNEW the tune and how to vary the feel and not get lost or miss a beat..and Wes was on top of the tune at all times..

What I have noticed many play the melody and chords in a safe part of the neck and take some chances with the solo on the rest of the neck

Rock & blues guys would start with a melodic line in the lower range and then bend the life out of it beyond the 12th fret

even some jazz players have not used the upper registers well..but to me the new generation of young players encompase the entire fretboard with amazing speed and can still be melodic

[ragman1]

I always learn a tune in two octaves. Them move the solo from open to about 5th, then 5th upwards as required. Couldn't do it at first then it became very familiar.

That way of learning is FAR better than 'play these scales in all positions'. I really can't think of anything less interesting.

[pingu]

Nice Wes video
One apron a time i had the lick at 3.43 as my phone ring
i'd forgotten that ..... Thanks !

to to the original question
It is something all the great jazz players seem to do a lot
if you wanna play a motif a minor third up
I guess it's easy on the head to just move up a few frets

[Gabor]

Well, you move to a different octave, and one tends to move to a higher octave when building up towards a climax.

Now I am confused... Is not what octave pedal is for?

[pauln]

Now I am confused... Is not what octave pedal is for?

In Jazz, the use of an octave pedal is usually to sound an octave below, at almost a subliminal relative level, to lend just a sense of depth and body to the tone... often done this way when playing unaccompanied and wanting to get the feel of a little more bottom end under the guitar rather than just a more bassy sounding guitar.

It would not be used to play octaves like Wes.

For fusion, the octave above is often employed, sometimes with distortion.

Frank and the Mothers used it with the sax (under octaves sounding like they were converted to triangle waveform) on King Kong...

[Jazzstdnt]

Ahem. It's possible that Gabor was kidding.

[Gabor]

In Jazz, the use of an octave pedal is usually to sound an octave below,

(Yes, I was kidding, and the last thing I wanted to trick one anyone, I only want to make laugh anyone for a few secs, sorry for being confusing.)

However the base idea what allowed me to make this joke is actually a real impro, and does exactly this octave thing up, exactly as Torito described "to move to a higher octave when building up towards a climax" but and not with changing position, instead switching an effect, well not exactly with octave pedal but on guitar synth.

It is Pat Metheny's Are You Going With Me. In the original recording from the LP Offramp, he does the octave up switch around 5:26. It is about approx 2 bar after where the previous chorus ends. The switch is very well audible, and disturbingly changes the tone of the guitar synth, but what is more sad that the cheap movement to achieve the climax. (the attribute "cheap" is relative, but you always may expect more from the greatests, and also cheap because not changing frets as the OP about) He consequently does pretty the same thing (and btw play pretty the same solo) on all the multiple live rendition of Are You Going With Me.

Unfortunatelly only a bad quality Youtube link I found, but all for have at least have a free Spotify account I provide the Spotify link, chorus ends at 5:20, switch is around 5:25

Spotify:
Are You Going With Me?, a song by Pat Metheny Group on Spotify

I think this recording is not the original, still interestingly the chorus ends at 5:20 and the switch is a bit later 5:30 and less clearly audible. The lines are almost the same but not exactly. This is also disappointing a bit.

Youtube: