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Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):
Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7
Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
| Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F
But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
What is your approach in these situations?
*Analysis:
| Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | is really | Amin7 | Dmin7 | (iii vi) with standard substitutions:
Amin7 -> A7 (secondary dominant) -> Eb7 (tritone) -> Bbmin7 Eb7 (adding ii).
Dmin7 -> D7 (secondary dominant) -> Amin7 D7 (adding ii) -> Amin7 Ab7 (tritone to only dominant)Last edited by Tal_175; 09-20-2019 at 01:29 PM.
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09-20-2019 11:23 AM
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Moving pretty quick there. I might play D7 to C7 to F. Or run an idea downward in half steps. Or play off the melody's idea of repeating a note over those first three chords.
I hear the Ab7 in passing, so I don't need to address it most of the time. I'll play through that change...Am or D7 to C7 to F.
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Tritone sub Gb7 for C7 to preserve the chromatic line. But I'm not sure whether the question is about comping or single line soloing.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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It's for soloing. I understand that getting the bassline movement in the solo is not particularly meaningful. Chromatic descending chords (not just the bassline) is an interesting part of the harmony though, so bringing that out in the solo in some choruses could be nice. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Then I suppose Barry might suggest playing the dominant into its tritone, for instance coming down the dominant, surrounding a chord tone of the tritone, then moving on the tritone, using the dominant rules throughout. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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+1. When thinking of dominants, instead of Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
| Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F
I would try
| A7 | D7 | C7 | F
one chorus and
| Eb7 | Ab7 | Gb7 | F
the next chorus.
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I am slightly confused by how you present this.
I look at this song progression in two bar chunks as a starting reference.1. | Fma7 | Gm7 C7 | tonic/dominant opening
2. | Fma7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | tonic resolution and approach to the turnaround
3. | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | turnaround
4. | Fma7 | Abm7 Db7 || tonic resolution and the modulation to the new key
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I think of that song segment as a version of a more general progression that's seen in my tunes (iii vi ii V) in many forms. In this tune it manifest it self with (also common) substitutions as | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 |. Would you not agree? Originally Posted by bako
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I agree that there is nothing uncommon about | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | or the many possible
variations of tri-tone substitutes
I see Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | as the variant on Am7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 ||
I see Bbm7 Eb7 | as part of a larger structure Fma7 | Bbm7 Eb7 |
an expansion of Fma7 | Eb7 | > D7
It is only in the way that you have this organized that I disagree with.
There are many ways to link progression segments together and this versatility opens up a level of
melodic freedom to break out of the confines of 2 and 4 bar phrases.
But as a starting reference, both the melody and the progression suggest to me a
2 bar organization as I depicted above.
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Sure 2 and 4 bar organization is important to determine harmonic stress patterns (weak bars vs strong bars). In this instance I was giving Joy Spring as an example of this progression with particular substitutions in a harmonic placement agnostic way. This is not because harmonic placement isn't important, but because I believe this is not the only possible harmonic placement of this progression. For example it can also occur as the last three bars going back to I, no?
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3 bar turnaround
Bbm7 Eb7 > A7 > Am7 and Am7 Ab7 > D7 > Dm7 ...... Gm7 C7 | F
Am7 | Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 or the simplification | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | Fma7 ||
2 bar turnaround
Fma7 | Eb7 | Am7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 || or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 ||
or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Db7 C7 | Fma7 ||
Whatever analysis helps you play what you want is all good.
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I don't really know what I would play. But, in looking over those changes, I see: Originally Posted by bako
F tonal center (or F lydian maybe, by leaving the Bnatural) moving to Ab tonal center with a clever transition into a 3625 variant turnaround to F.
That's the first level.
Next level is chord tones. So, the Bb note will loom large in bar 2. In bar 4, the F moves to Eb. The A moves to Ab, the C moves to Db. The E can move either way. That puts me in Ab tonal center. I can make up a line in Ab or I can outline the chord tones of the ii V, or something.
But, the ii V never quite makes it to Ab. So, I'm going to think about outlining those changes with chord tones along with notes from Ab and then, when it's time, from F.
For better or worse, that's about how far I'd go in thinking about these changes.
As an academic exercise I know that other scales and modes can be used and I can name some, but I never think about that level of things when I play. I believe that there are awesome players who do think that way. Clearly, it works for them, so I am not recommending against it. I'm just describing what I do FWIW.
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Lots of good clear info from Bako, as always.
This doesn't have to be hard, folks. It's a turnaround. Point A to point B.
Heres an option.
I love y'all, but sometimes it's like you WANT it to be difficult.
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I too think bako's perspective is right on.
As far as what to play, I think mr. beaumont's example is excellent, including his young accompaniment - conceptually clean, sounds great.
Everyone has their own things, I like to include the passing chords in my solos; in fact I often kind of play "inside out" meaning I push and develop the tritones and passing chords when soloing more than the primary chords of the progression ( a kind of reversal of foreground/background thing).
For example, when I hear that change ("Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin") in this harmonic context:
- I might change that Ab7 to Abdimb6 and express it with G Lydian Dominant or B diminished (whole half)
- I might change that Ab7 to Ab79b5 and express it with Ab Lydian Dominant or C diminished (whole half)
... depending on the mood of the tune and what other people might be playing.
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The following approach unlocks a lot for me, both in terms of sounds and fretboard navigation:
- Play the ii chords as minor 7th arp from the 5th or from the root.
- Play the V chords as melodic minor or dorian from the 5th or as super locrian (mel minor a half-step up from the root of the V chord)
- Thus you need only think of one root note to realize a ii-V as minor arpeggio or Dorian mode: play minor 7th from 5th resolving to minor 6 from fifth. For example, to play Bb-7 Eb7 play F Ab C Eb D C Ab F. The sound of resolving b7 to natural 6 (in boldface) is what's important. Mix up the notes, play arp or scale or both, just make that resolution happen.
- Play I chords as iii or as vi.
- Similarly you can play minor chords as relative major; e.g. A- can be realized as Cma.
If you can hear and play all of these simple subs without hesitation, you find a lot of possibilities. For example, you could play the Joy Spring example like so (first line is the original progression, second is the subs.)
Fma | G-7 C7 | Fma | Bb-7 Eb7 | A-7 Ab7 | G-7 C7 | Fma
A-7 | G-7 G-6 | Fma| F-7 E-ma7 | E-7 Eb-6 | D-7 Db-ma7 | D-7
Notice the simple stepwise root motion in the second line - there's not a lot to think about in order to create melodic lines that weave through the changes seamlessly.
Here's a variation: treating the second Fma as iii and starting the Bb-7 progression from its root gives you easy entry into treating the Ab7 as an altered dom by using super locrian:
Fma | G-7 C7 | Fma | Bb-7 Eb7 | A-7 Ab7 | G-7 C7 | Fma
Fma | G-7 G-6 | A-7| Bb-7 Bb-6 | A-7 A-ma7 | D-7 Db-ma7 | Cma6
In the last bar, Cma6 = A-7 = sub for Fma9.
Its pretty easy to jump a tritone away or a half-step up, so you can do all sorts of variations on these examples without too much effort. For example, if just hanging on the A- while the band changes to Ab7 does not really give you the altered dom sound you want, it's easy to jump to Eb-6 there, especially if you played the A- as E-.
This is stuff that a lot of people on this board know, likely yourself included, so if I'm missing the point, could you elaborate a bit on whether the problem you want to solve is mechanical or theoretical?
Cheers,
SJLast edited by starjasmine; 09-21-2019 at 04:10 AM.
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What Beaumont said.
Only works if Kid Uke plays along too
(Great tone, by the way)
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I beg to differ. Tritone substitutions is one way of getting altered notes. They are not different things. There other ways to think altered. Originally Posted by djg
But Ab7 is the tritone of D7. That's I think how most people would understand it.Last edited by Tal_175; 09-21-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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OK I see where you're going this now. You're right that it's not tritone "substitution". I should've just said tritone. Originally Posted by djg
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Awesome. Eb7 idea down a half step to D7 then C7 to F (at least how I heard your line) works nicely. Brings out the harmonic movement and resolution to F clearly too. Thanks. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Great post. Originally Posted by djg
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A few thoughts for you
Joy Spring is Tonal with lots of keys.
Bar4 Bbm7 - Eb7 backdoor in FMaj use your ears ( forget about every sub imaginable )
Amin is FMaj you will get the rest D7#9 is FMaj repeat & rinse up 1/2 step etc Blah
playing tunes that changes key frequently for short periods, by making the key clear can be interesting enough. You dont have necessarily to alter chords. ......of course you can the idea is to be musical.
Being a bit contrary here,
Bar4 could be played as say a change from Fmaj Bars 1-3 to Fmin in Bar4 because Bbm7-Eb7 is ii V of AbMaj.
But again Bbm7-Eb7 is FMaj or F lydian...... if you want
Although i said dont alter etc this is not really altering, more but interpreting the harmony differently
ie Fmin = AbMaj .........relative minor etc
Hearing the tonality when it changes allows one to be more musical, not overcomplicating, since its
fast & several key changes, subbing tritoning can complicate especially in this tune, .....but not to say you shouldn't. ............... Play with musical taste.
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yea generally you need an analysis to start with... so you can decide what tonal targets you want to work with...
A I VI II V is generally just a Chord pattern with analysis of Tonic. I understand there is a mini functional analysis within the Chord Pattern.... but that has been played and developed so much... it has become... a "Chord Pattern" with standard Jazz Common Practice usage... and analysis.
The IV- (Bb-7) is really the only harmonic target that gets interesting.... where you get a chance to get away from the Key. Doesn't matter whether you want to think of the Bb- as related II- of bVII....Eb7... or as IV- with related V7... their both from Parallel Minor...
The rest of the changes are are basically just use of Subs... I think I have a Vid of that Tune.
Anyway.... Subs, Tal... the approach has many options... it just depends what you want to call the Reference... the reference is just the tonal target you choose to use as starting harmonic point for using Subs.
The standard subs... are tri-tone... with either inverting a tritone and using the new 7th chord....Bb7 becomes E7. Or you can use Root motion.... Bb to E.... and the chord can be of your choice. Same principal... just takes more organization... harmonic organization. Then their are ....the standard Borrowing subs.... relative and Parallel thing. Go modal interchange and you come up with many more options of same principal... When you start using Chord Patterns.... you get a bunch more.
Ex.... think of II- V as chord pattern.... the jazz basic etc... So in almost any harmonic context.... any tune, the Chord pattern of II- V can use as the Harmonic Target....(target is what becomes the Reference), The actual II-, the V7 or the implied I of that II-V
D-7 G7.... the target of your improv can be D-7.... or G7 or the implied I... Cma7.
With I VI II V.... a longer chord pattern.... there are even more possibilities.
So generally when I'm performing Joy Spring.... the 1st four bars have a basic changes.... F6/9 D7#9 / G-7 C79 / A-7 D7/ Bb-7 Eb7/
the / A-7 D7#9 or Ab13/ G-7 C7 and turn around. I play much more , it's just a blues tune... right. I mean it doesn't need to be... you can just play like your playin swing dance music. But where's the fun in that.
Maybe you should go through the motion of taking single chords going to all the possibilities , ex Bb7 going to Eb, E F etc and all types of chords and and start using subs. Add all the extensions and you'll begin to see as well as hear...which subs work best. Then do same thing with those chords and subs in tunes.... there are only so many types of chord movements etc...
Yea then you should... expand the single chord to Chord Patterns... Chord Patterns are basically just chords from tunes. Chord patterns that become common practice, jazz common practice because they're used in jazz tunes.
I get it... these are things that you you should have done as kid.... but as adults... most will get even more out of the drills.
OK here's the vid, from 2011..., pretty old LOL I still suck
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Thanks Reg. Very nice playing. Just want to ask 2 quick questions to make sure that I understood a couple of things correctly:
Considering Imaj as the harmonic target of II- V is of course an obvious choice. But you said target (or reference) could also be say II-. By that do you mean taking II- as the temporary key (either dorian or MM) and treating II V as a Imin IV7 in that key. Therefore applying functional substitutions to Imin in ways that harmonic functions work in that temporary key? Originally Posted by Reg
So for example first practice lines where Bb7 is going to Ebmaj. Then substituting Bb7 with say E7. Ie E7 going to Ebmaj, then may be substituting Bb7 for example with back door (Db7 going to Eb) etc etc. Then start over with Bb7 going to a different chord? Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks ragman for good ideas. Finding out how others approach these types of changes was the point of my post. I think I need to clarify something though, I'm all for simplification. In fact in my original post, I presented one simplification as an idea. A big part of the thread is to find out what other ways people tend to simplify this. But before you can simplify it, I think it needs to be analyzed and understood. Of course you can do that aurally as well, but that wouldn't translate well on an internet forum.
That said, keeping it busy and playing all the changes and more is also valid. One doesn't always have to play the same way chorus after chorus. Variation is good. So I'm interested in finding out about busier approaches as well.
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I was rushing a bit. I'm going to correct the (minor) errors and re-post. May as well get it right!
I know you simplified the changes. Of course they have to be analysed but there's analysing and analysing. If you see how the changes are derived then very little analysis is necessary, if any. I mean, you don't have analyse to know that Ab is a tritone sub for D, for example.
But apart from that I was really talking about soloing over them. One doesn't have to break one's fingers trying to enunciate every chord. Let the background do the work.
But I'll re-post (after necessary shopping excursion, unfortunately).
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