A Foggy Day – Need help with F6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6 passage

[buduranus2]

I have difficulty managing passages with two beats per chord, this being the latest of many. It's not that I don't understand their relationship, rather that I can't seem to do anything "musical" with them. As close as I can come is to spell the chords, i.e. F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F which isn't very imaginative. (The ensuing iii-vi-ii-V7 isn't too problematic for me.) I'd appreciate any guidance or insights that might help me play with more melodic continuity. Thanks!

[christianm77]

I have difficulty managing passages with two beats per chord, this being the latest of many. It's not that I don't understand their relationship, rather that I can't seem to do anything "musical" with them. As close as I can come is to spell the chords, i.e. F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F which isn't very imaginative. (The ensuing iii-vi-ii-V7 isn't too problematic for me.) I'd appreciate any guidance or insights that might help me play with more melodic continuity. Thanks!

I know the feeling!

In this tune, I solo in the key (F) until I got that Bbm chord and whack out the Db. It’s not big. It’s not clever.

But it works and it sounds good.

Outlining chords 1-2-3-5 is another time-honoured strategy.

Sometimes you can’t really improvise freely. There are often sections of a tune where you do a thing. It’s absolutely fine. Everyone does it.

[christianm77]

Also it all belongs to F maj6-dim if you check any Barry Harris stuff out.

[buduranus2]

I know the feeling!

In this tune, I solo in the key (F) until I got that Bbm chord and whack out the Db. It’s not big. It’s not clever.

But it works and it sounds good.

Outlining chords 1-2-3-5 is another time-honoured strategy.

Sometimes you can’t really improvise freely. There are often sections of a tune where you do a thing. It’s absolutely fine. Everyone does it.

Thanks for the recommendation. Adding the 2 makes it a little more linear, which is what I'm after. How do you feel about substituting Eb9 for Bbmi6? Not completely kosher I realize. Any benefit to that or am I just making life more difficult?

[ragman1]

F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F

I assume you're playing 'notes' rather than chord melody.

Well, the second chord isn't 'A', it's either Am7b5/D7b9 or F#o. I don't know which one you're using.

It's in F. The third bar goes into Gm7 so you need a G harmonic minor run over the Am7b5-D7b9. One of the easiest ways is to outline a Cm6 chord over it. But once you're into the Gm7 again you're back in F. Incidentally, outlining a Bbm6 chord over the C7 gives a nice sound into the tonic F.

An awkward one might be the Dm7b5 in bar 6. But the next chord's a G7 so you could carry on playing F melodic minor over both those. Then you're back in F again.

The Cm7/F7 - BbM7 (or Bb6) is straightforward and can be played as one line. The next chord is either Eb7 or Bbm6. I'd be tempted to treat it as a Bbm6 and just hit the Db note to emphasise the minor change.

I don't know where you get the Db from in your list.

Don't forget it's not really about 'scales' as such although they're a good guide to what notes you play. Any chord can be embellished with passing notes.

Try it slowly till you know where you are with it and then speed up if necessary. Keep to the spirit and mood of the song, that'll help with your improvisation.

[ragman1]

Here's a quick noodle over it with the ideas as above. It's not bebop :-)

[buduranus2]

I assume you're playing 'notes' rather than chord melody.

Well, the second chord isn't 'A', it's either Am7b5/D7b9 or F#o. I don't know which one you're using.

It's in F. The third bar goes into Gm7 so you need a G harmonic minor run. One of the easiest ways is to outline a Cm6 chord over the Am7b5-D7b9. But once you're into the Gm7 again you're back in F. Incidentally, outlining a Bbm6 chord over the C7 gives a nice sound into the tonic F.

An awkward one might be the Dm7b5 in bar 6. But the next chord's a G7 so you could carry on playing F melodic minor over both those. Then you're back in F again.

The Cm7/F7 - BbM7 (or Bb6) is straightforward and can be played as one line. The next chord is either Eb7 or Bbm6. I'd be tempted to treat it as a Bbm6 and just hit the Db note to emphasise the minor change.

I don't know where you get the Db from in your list.

Don't forget it's not really about 'scales' as such although they're a good guide to what notes you play. Any chord can be embellished with passing notes.

Try it slowly till you know where you are with it and then speed up if necessary. Keep to the spirit and mood of the song, that'll help with your improvisation.

I think we may be referencing different sections of the tune. I intended to reference the section towards the end where the chords change every two beats: Fmaj6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6.

[christianm77]

Thanks for the recommendation. Adding the 2 makes it a little more linear, which is what I'm after. How do you feel about substituting Eb9 for Bbmi6? Not completely kosher I realize. Any benefit to that or am I just making life more difficult?

Nothing not wrong about that... Some charts have Eb9. The two chords are interchangeable, in this context at least.

If you have things to play Eb9, great. But it's two beats of that chord. How many notes do you want to play? Db is kind of the important note.

I'd be tempted to play a Bbm triad actually. Bit of a Jim Hall move.

[ragman1]

the section towards the end where the chords change every two beats: Fmaj6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6.

It's all F. The F-Gm-Am-Dm stuff is all F, it's a recognised sub. Which you'll never forget now :-)

If you hit the Bbm6 just don't forget the Db! Listen to what I did, it's just noodling over F. To be honest, that's one of the easiest bits. After that it's the ii-V into F again.

[christianm77]

TBH if you are asking these questions, it's much more helpful to listen to your favourite players handle that bit on A Foggy Day and copy what they do. It's only a couple of bars.

These players are probably better at jazz than us.

[ragman1]

You could make a great effort to go up F, then Gm, then Am, then etc etc, but I don't think it's worth it. Takes away the flow.

Here's not a bad version. Listen to how they hit the Db of the Bbm6 and then noodle over the F-Gm-Am bit (I hadn't heard any recorded versions before I did mine!)

[ragman1]

Here's a more boppy version. He just repeats a chromatic lick over it (at 1.25). Notes: F Ab A Bb B C (or should that be Cb?)

[christianm77]

I mean that is the other option. Ignore the Bbm. It is but a passing chord.

[buduranus2]

I mean that is the other option. Ignore the Bbm. It is but a passing chord.

Hey, you just made my life easier!

[rpjazzguitar]

Edit: When I picked up the guitar and tried it, I remembered that this particular section sounds like a nice reharm of Fmaj7 E7 A7 D7, or Fmaj E7 Eb7 D7. Think "Ain't She Sweet". Or it could be Bm7b5 E7, Am7b5 D7. Or, consider that Bbm6 is a sub, in effect, for D7#9.

But, my suggestion is to strum the chords and scat sing. When you get a line you like, put it on the guitar.

If you can't scat sing anything you like, then listen to lots of versions on youtube. I'd suggest focusing, at first, on players who don't play that many notes. Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond come to mind. Find some passages you like, sing them and then put them on the guitar.

This is generally my suggestion when you already know enough theory to avoid clams but you're struggling to play something musically valid.

[buduranus2]

It's all F until the Bbm. What you play over the Bbm will depend on whatever came before it. The most important movement is from D to Db - Christian mentioned that. And, then you have to make some other choices, E vs Eb, G vs Gb, A vs Ab.

But, my suggestion is to strum the chords and scat sing. When you get a line you like, put it on the guitar.

If you can't scat sing anything you like, then listen to lots of versions on youtube. I'd suggest focusing, at first, on players who don't play that many notes. Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond come to mind. Find some passages you like, sing them and then put them on the guitar.

This is generally my suggestion when you already know enough theory to avoid clams but you're struggling to play something musically valid.

One of the challenges I face is that I know what I want to play but my execution is slow and my fingers are short. So I'm always looking for areas on the fretboard that are more conducive to playing what I want to do cleanly. Often, though, that leads me to the E strings, which are either a little muddy or thin. The playalong track I'm using is 150bpm, a nice swinging tempo. I can jam out quite nicely (at least to my ears) on everything but the sequence in question. I've set up a loop at a slower tempo to bank a few ideas, but the wheels come off the wagon when I play it at tempo. No substitute for hard work, I suppose. BTW, I could listen to Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond all day!

[rpjazzguitar]

One of the challenges I face is that I know what I want to play but my execution is slow and my fingers are short. So I'm always looking for areas on the fretboard that are more conducive to playing what I want to do cleanly. Often, though, that leads me to the E strings, which are either a little muddy or thin. The playalong track I'm using is 150bpm, a nice swinging tempo. I can jam out quite nicely (at least to my ears) on everything but the sequence in question. I've set up a loop at a slower tempo to bank a few ideas, but the wheels come off the wagon when I play it at tempo. No substitute for hard work, I suppose. BTW, I could listen to Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond all day!

This makes it sound more like a technique issue. That's a different discussion. It requires identifying individual roadblocks in your technique and finding workable solutions. Or, alternatively, it may be that what you want to play is simply really difficult. Post a video? That might help others figure out what to suggest.

Typically, short fingers isn't the problem with playing single note lines. In fact, for many people, the problem is the right hand, not the left.

I don't understand how you're led to the E strings.

Are you saying the problem with this sequence is that it's only 2 beats per chord? If that's the issue, play Fmajor scale ideas over F Gm Am. Don't even think about the chord changes. Then, play the same thing but flatten the D and E. There is an infinite number of possibilities, but that's a good one to start with. When that gets comfortable try adjusting a note here and there to make the chord changes more obvious in your lead line.

[rintincop]

I've always done it like in The Standards Real Book by Chuck Sher:

| Fmaj7/C G-7/C | Fmaj7/C G-7/C | Fmaj7/C D-7 | G-7 C7 | F | G-7 C7 ||

[buduranus2]

You could make a great effort to go up F, then Gm, then Am, then etc etc, but I don't think it's worth it. Takes away the flow.

Here's not a bad version. Listen to how they hit the Db of the Bbm6 and then noodle over the F-Gm-Am bit (I hadn't heard any recorded versions before I did mine!)

This is actually very helpful, because the harmonies seem closer to swing – "prebop" if you will. So it gives me a clearer sense of the foundation for what came afterwards. Reminded me of Johnny Hodges and Coleman Hawkins. Kind of a Teddy Wilson vibe on piano too.

[buduranus2]

This makes it sound more like a technique issue. That's a different discussion. It requires identifying individual roadblocks in your technique and finding workable solutions. Or, alternatively, it may be that what you want to play is simply really difficult. Post a video? That might help others figure out what to suggest.

Typically, short fingers isn't the problem with playing single note lines. In fact, for many people, the problem is the right hand, not the left.

I don't understand how you're led to the E strings.

Are you saying the problem with this sequence is that it's only 2 beats per chord? If that's the issue, play Fmajor scale ideas over F Gm Am. Don't even think about the chord changes. Then, play the same thing but flatten the D and E. There is an infinite number of possibilities, but that's a good one to start with. When that gets comfortable try adjusting a note here and there to make the chord changes more obvious in your lead line.

My technique's not the smoothest, not the worst either. That said, clean execution is the goal. Whether I achieve it or not is, as you say, a different discussion. What I want to play, and, in fact, can play is basic bop with typical chromatic elements – i.e. b5 b9 descending runs, note enclosures etc. How I'm led to the E strings is that the notes I want to play are easier to access there at times. I think your recommendation to consider the first three chords as belonging to F major is easy to grasp. I think Christian's suggestion to spell the chords 1 2 3 5 is a good starting point for me. A little more linear than just playing the arpeggios. So, like you say, once I get more comfortable with the inside harmonies I can alter a note here and there to create a little more flavor.

[buduranus2]

Edit: When I picked up the guitar and tried it, I remembered that this particular section sounds like a nice reharm of Fmaj7 E7 A7 D7, or Fmaj E7 Eb7 D7. Think "Ain't She Sweet". Or it could be Bm7b5 E7, Am7b5 D7. Or, consider that Bbm6 is a sub, in effect, for D7#9.

Yes, that's it. I intuitively feel a circle of 4ths thing going on but don't have the conceptual framework to connect the dots as you have.

[christianm77]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a connection between D7 and Bbm6. I’ll have to have a listen when I get a chance.

Bbm6 usually returns to F in this key, (or related chords like Dm) whereas D7 would go to Gm7 or G7, so from a functional place i would think them very different .... but I’ll give it a try!

[pingu]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a connection between D7 and Bbm6. I’ll have to have a listen when I get a chance.

Bbm6 usually returns to F in this key, (or related chords like Dm) whereas D7 would go to Gm7 or G7, so from a functional place i would think them very different .... but I’ll give it a try!

me neither ....
Bbm6 and Eb7 , then ok

[ragman1]

I think it was D7#9 as a sub for F6 before Gm7. Seems to work, could be wrong.

[christianm77]

I think it was D7#9 as a sub for F6 before Gm7. Seems to work, could be wrong.

Oh yeah that’s a thing.