-
I have an admission to make. While listening to some nice Jazz I found some of the solos annoyed me. I won't name this great artist, but on some of the faster songs, he did two things that just disturbed my listening experience. I am only addressing the way he seemed perpetually behind the beat by a micro second - just enough to where when he would end a line, it would be after beat.
Maybe this was for effect and intentional, but I don't recall hearing other Beboppers playing Bebop this way. They always seem so locked in.
I would love to hear some thoughts if anyone else has noticed this approach to playing and have any opinions on it.Last edited by AlsoRan; 07-21-2019 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Clarity
-
07-20-2019 05:08 PM
-
guitarist? modern?
-
It’s difficult to know exactly what you are referring to. Lester Young often played behind the beat, so did Dexter Gordon sometimes (he was influenced by Lester), nothing wrong with the way they did it, they were masters of that particular approach.
But I don’t know if that’s what you mean, or something else.
-
You know something? I think you are right, because there are times with Dexter Gordon that I just feel that same sense of unfulfillment. I guess I just don't like that behind the beat type of soloing throughout the solo.
Originally Posted by grahambop
Of course, this is my personal problem. Singers that sing "too far" behind the beat affect me the same way when it comes to faster songs. Oh well, like I said. Its my problem. I won't go on about it. I will do some more listening.
-
Ha, ha. Sorry to have you in suspense, Irez. Originally Posted by Irez87
I just don't want to in any way insult another person's style, at least not by name. Who am I? It can be so unfair since some people take it and pile on. And it is just not my place, as an alsoran jazz guitarist who ran out of time.
-
Unless it's someone here, I think it's fine to figure out what you like and what you don't in the players that you listen to.
You all know that I don't like PM, I don't feel guilty about that one no matter how popular he is. My dislike won't hurt him one bit. But it does help me figure out my sound and my direction.
To add to that, I love Barney Kessel's playing--but I don't enjoy the "smears" he did in his later playing (to sound like Coltrane maybe?)
I'll keep going...
I think that Pat Martino's tone can be way too dark for me at times. I love his lines, and his rhythmic feel (he's more than a "stream of 8ths" player, IMHO)--but that tone doesn't work for me.
Once again, knowing what I like and dislike in the musicians I listen to is EXTREMELY important to my development.
I'll do one more. I love Joe Pass's lines and his accompaniment. That said, I don't like his "excessive" use of hammer on's and pull offs. I think that technique works in Sco's feeling because his distorted sound--I think it makes Sco sound like a raunchy tenor player. But the use of that articulation with a clean tone--it doesn't work for me. As a result, I pick most of my notes--and I work on the dynamics of all my notes. I use chromaticism on two adjacent strings to get some of that "mordent type" articulation.
I know people who hate players that pick most notes, so they'd probably hate my playing. No problem, you have to be confident with what you like.
So, in summary, wear what you like and what you don't (in music) with pride. Your tastes might change, but there's no shame in discussing what sounds work for you and which don't
-
Coltrane?
-
Omg
-
Originally Posted by rictroll
Omg
I know. Bad joke.
-
Isn't piling on what the Internest is all about? Originally Posted by AlsoRan
-
You seem to be talking about two different things. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
1. Playing behind the beat a little bit (must be a white guy, lol).
2. "Over the bar line" phrasing.
Regarding the latter, the improvised line is a big deal in jazz. When jazz improvisation gets too orderly with strict fidelity to the changes/harmonic rhythm it can sound a bit like Mozart. It can sound.... square.
NOT the objective.
-
Learn Donna Lee...
Start with Bird
By the time you get it under the fingers and thoroughly implanted in the memory...
I think Jimmy Bruno said that.
-
You know what I'm talking about. Don't be a brash broccoli! Originally Posted by Fortune
-
You know I hate to say anything about Coltrane, I'm pretty much a beginner, and I think he's got a lot of really great stuff. But once in a while his time did feel wonky to me. Then again my own time feel usually sounds wonky when I listen back. So I'll shut up now Originally Posted by Irez87
-
Fortune,
who said anything negative about Coltrane?
Coltrane got me into jazz--I listened to John Coltrane's "Coltrane" with my dad when I was 6 years old.
I still love Coltrane's playing. All of it. Only now can I work some of his melodic material into my playing... 27 years later! The way Coltrane can play with basic material, like a Bm pentatonic scale--it's inspiring, especially because everyone always talks about his "sheets of sound"
Clarification, I was talking about Barney Kessel trying to be hip and doing his "random notes in quick succession" in his later playing.
We did a thread on this a couple of years back.
That said, if you don't like some of Coltrane's stuff--why is that blasphemy?
Maybe you'll visit it in a couple of years and love it? Maybe not?
Too much hero worship.
I know PM would probably make another video rant about "people 'not' understanding his music"
John Coltrane wouldn't care, because he was on another ethereal plain...
If we all liked the same thing, music would be boring.
Or you could say, if you don't like it get... nah, I won't do that here...
Oh brother...
-
Without knowing what player the OP is talking about, I can’t really add any thoughts.
-
Barney had a habit of looking at the audience in between his solos..real rapport with them...So.....just saying..omg coltrane flourishes..he made it look effortless
Last edited by voxss; 07-21-2019 at 10:26 AM. Reason: d
-
-
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Ha, ha! I read through that thread about White players playing behind the beat. I am glad we were able to isolate it down to more of a case culture/exposure rather than race, LOL.
But to clarify, I am referring to playing behind the beat. I do like when players surge ahead, lag behind, and lock into the beat in a given song. It adds variety. But when the whole song is played seemingly behind the beat, it is just not my cup of tea. Dexter's Blue Bossa, if I remember correctly, seemed to be where I first noticed this style. I kept thinking, "catch up, my friend, you are not keeping up."
Most of my music exposure must have been on the beat playing, such as dance music, R&B, etc.. So, when I hear a faster, more uptempo song, I kind of tap my feet and I find with some songs, I don't know whether to follow the soloist or the rhythm section, which messes up my personal groove.
-
Jimmy Raney talks about timing here. As he says, some players like to play behind the beat, it gives a certain feel.
-
I surrender to the mercy of the judge, but I cannot throw my man under the bus like that. I invoke my fifth amendment rights. Originally Posted by Lobomov
C'mon man .. I can understand not wanting to out a player for lack of chops, but disagreeing with an artistic choice is fair and only adds nuance and discussion. Post example!
-
I recognize the effect that he is talking about. To me, it gives the song a kind of relaxed, lazy feeling a la Billy Holiday. Originally Posted by grahambop
I don't want that feeling in fast tempo, so there is where my taste diverge from those that like this type of playing.
-
I hear Barry Harris as a behind the beat bebop player
Personally I really like this feel. It reminds me of Jimmy Raney on guitar, and it's no surprise to me that Barry is a big fan of Raney's playing.
Then you have someone like Wynton Kelly, more on the beat.
Actually his phrasing on this one almost feels straight against swing.
Grant Green on this one seems to be more on the beat too.
Is this the sort of thing you mean AlsoRan?
-
Damn, I want to get that Barry Harris album.
It's not on Amazon--new at least.
So I guess it's off to Discogs
-
If a soloist is behind the beat, go with the rhythm section...always.
the job of the rhythm section is always provide foundation...unless you are purposefully avant guard
there is a way to play behind but at the right moment give the pivot point to the rhythm section...if it's not there, well, it's someone I wouldn't want to accompany
a great soloist, as an accompanist, pulls you in to listen, a bad soloist forces the accompanist to not listen and hold hands with fellow rhythm sectionists
Reply With Quote
Tone KIng Imperial Preamp
Today, 08:47 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos