Bebop lines that are behind the rhythm - I just don't like them

**grahambop** · 07-22-2019, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Damn, I want to get that Barry Harris album.

It's not on Amazon--new at least.

So I guess it's off to Discogs

I recently got it from iTunes as a download. It is indeed a great album.

Here’s another track, I love the relaxed feel Barry gets on this.

**christianm77** · 07-22-2019, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by bonsritmos

If a soloist is behind the beat, go with the rhythm section...always.

the job of the rhythm section is always provide foundation...unless you are purposefully avant guard

there is a way to play behind but at the right moment give the pivot point to the rhythm section...if it's not there, well, it's someone I wouldn't want to accompany

a great soloist, as an accompanist, pulls you in to listen, a bad soloist forces the accompanist to not listen and hold hands with fellow rhythm sectionists

Yeah... not sure if I get this completely and feel free to pull me apart, but this is my working model.

At medium - medium upbeat tempos players synchronise on the accented upbeats. Now you can do this by having quite a dotted eighth (Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly) or a straighter 1/8 that sits behind the beat (Barry Harris). Either way the upbeats - the "ands" are in the same place so you are giving the information to the group - the tempo doesn't drag because the upbeat placement is consistent, and everyone feels it and is locked in.

Some players are super consistent and articulated (Dexter Gordon, most guitar players) others can be a bit haphazard, but always nail the important accents so they totally swing (Hank Mobley.)

Now Barry Harris often talks about the importance of triplets in the line - his favourites, Bird and Bud, always play 1/8th triplets in their lines even at the fastest tempos. The triplet is executed exactly to my ears - the 1st note is very much right in the middle of the downbeat, and notes are evenly separated. This, I find, is f***ing hard on the guitar. I've been working on it for about 5 years, and it's only starting to come together and that's at tempi south of 240. More on that later.

So in the style of players like BH, the triplet offers the chance to reference the beat, and so you get this delicious push/pull effect that I find intoxicating.

OK, so we whack up the tempo. Now, it's a lot harder to perceive the upbeats, and many players lock into the downbeat instead. This can still really swing - if my ears are right and that's what Wynton is doing, I couldn't say it isn't swinging (Wynton is incapable of not swinging.) There is a paper where they analyse Gerry Mulligan on an up tune, and this is what he seems to be doing.

On the other hand - from my own practice - if I can get just the right amount of lag at fast tempos, so my upbeats align consistently with the swung upbeat, I get a very nice, relaxed but locked in feeling.

Now it's possible to lag MORE than this... I think this is what BH may be doing. But the use of triplets pull him back in.

Now for guitarists, or at least for me, this is a problem because - triplets are hard. However, few modern players use them as much as Bird did (even bop sax players come to think of it), so they lag the beat (because I think it's widely known that's a viable solution) but they don't play many triplets.

Furthermore, north of 200 beats per minute or so it becomes very hard to consistently dot the 1/8ths on guitar. Because of this most guitarists play pretty straight 1/8ths and swing by playing slightly behind - Moreno, Bernstein etc all talk about 'straight but behind.' Even Charlie Christian, who had a larger dot at 200 than most, if not all, modern players had to straighten out to cross strings. It doesn't make it swing any less, but the dominant aesthetic of modern jazz guitar is play very evenly and consistently. Pat Martino is probably the graddaddy of this aesthetic.

One problem is that if you do this you can end up leaning to much on the drummer because you rely on finding the pocket rather than establishing one in your playing... I definitely have/had that problem myself...

However, not all guitar players are so 8th-ey. George Benson uses a lot of rhythmic variety, for instance.

**AlsoRan** · 07-22-2019, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I hear Barry Harris as a behind the beat bebop player

Personally I really like this feel. It reminds me of Jimmy Raney on guitar, and it's no surprise to me that Barry is a big fan of Raney's playing.

Then you have someone like Wynton Kelly, more on the beat.

Actually his phrasing on this one almost feels straight against swing.

Grant Green on this one seems to be more on the beat too.

Is this the sort of thing you mean AlsoRan?

You nailed it. I also hear some of that behind the beat phrasing in both Jimmy Raney and Doug Raney on his "Backbeat" album. It probably depends on my mood how I like it.

And Grant Green's Standards was my first Jazz CD and it helped inspire me to start trying to learn to play Jazz. His playing on that "Standards" album seems to be a little different that his more Bluesy sound on his other albums - at least to my ears. I really like his playing "on the beat."

By the way, that Barry Harris piano is just so beautiful to me. I did not detect that behind the beat playing. Like I said, maybe its just me!

**A. Kingstone** · 07-22-2019, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I hear Barry Harris as a behind the beat bebop player

..................

That is one squeaky hi-hat.

**AlsoRan** · 07-22-2019, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

That is one squeaky hi-hat.

But, wow! Did they fill up my speakers with sound. I am looking up that album, right now.

Update: Like Irez said, they have some copies on Amazon, used. $24.00 + shipping. Ouch, but given the rarity, probably worth it.

The wife is not going to be happy....

**rintincop** · 07-22-2019, 10:04 PM

Among jazz pianists, Wynton Kelly is considered to have had the most swinging effortless feel ever. And he could vary his eighth note pairs within each phrase in a sublime way. Red Garland also had a great great swinging feel, but with less variation in his pairs. That’s why Miles Davis cherished thise two pianists in particular. They are my favorites.

**Irez87** · 07-22-2019, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

But, wow! Did they fill up my speakers with sound. I am looking up that album, right now.

Update: Like Irez said, they have some copies on Amazon, used. $24.00 + shipping. Ouch, but given the rarity, probably worth it.

The wife is not going to be happy....

It's on itunes for 8 bucks...

But it's not a hard copy...

**Irez87** · 07-22-2019, 10:54 PM

It's got "our delight"!

I tried to play that recently--WHAT A TUNE!

**Irez87** · 07-22-2019, 11:19 PM

I hate the Apple Store... ate my money and won't let me play Barry Harris...

Apple gets the badass finger... and a stern phone cal l

**Gabor** · 07-23-2019, 02:57 AM

I really appreciate your decent decision not to name anyone.
However as Irez said, opinion can be expressed in appropriate way, and then there is nothing wrong about it, assuming limiting this to the "great perfomers" and not to each others demo's.

***

This thread has literally no point without hearing the recording(s) you are referring.
Talking about a specific performance style without sample to demonstrate? Think about it: it is really non-sense.

Not knowing what are we talking about, the only thing I can say:
Behind the beat, above the beat, exact beat: all can be terrible torture to listen if played by an unmusical person or could the coolest swinging jazz played by a great musician.

**A. Kingstone** · 07-23-2019, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

But, wow! Did they fill up my speakers with sound. I am looking up that album, right now.

Update: Like Irez said, they have some copies on Amazon, used. $24.00 + shipping. Ouch, but given the rarity, probably worth it.

The wife is not going to be happy....

It's terrific for sure but I'm a little annoyed every time I listen to it that the engineer or producer didn't notice the squeak.