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The more I do it, the less I think a tritone sub actually has to be dominant for dominant (and yes, I realize if it's not dominant for dominant the 3rds and 7ths aren't swapping, but still...)
So maybe that is the easiest way to explain the Db...I don't know. I still think the easiest way to think of it is just to relate it as a quick trip to Ab, which is really just borrowing the chord from F minor...but then again, I'm talking major here...I ain't digging that flat 7th. Sure it works, but it takes the "pretty" out.
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10-29-2018 10:24 AM
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Bravo, I agree.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I've been on this forum before, many years ago. There was some tune or other and I put in an Em7b5 in place of a Bb13. Some imperious poster said 'What's that?'. I said it's a tritone, Bb/E. He exploded and said I couldn't do that, it was all wrong, it was virtually a CRIME!
I said stuff it, the notes are right, it sounds good, and anyway I like it
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I've just found this. They analyse it in C, so Ab is the chord in question.
Question about one of the chords in "What A Wonderful World" : musictheory
Interesting that at the end it's still somewhat unresolved... or, rather, the OP isn't satisfied.
(To be honest, I don't really give a hoot why it's there. It just is, so I play it and enjoy it. Good enough for me. Sorry!)
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If I think of it as a kind of false cadence -- a slight detour between Dm and Gm -- then it makes sense whether it's Dbmaj, Dbmaj7 or Db7. That's the way I hear the tune, and the notes I like are Db pentatonic.
But, if I think of it as modal interchange, the Db7 doesn't fit and requires a different theoretical formulation.
I get that it's Fdim/Db, but I don't know what that predicts as far as the notes that will work over the Db7 chord. The D in FWH doesn't fit. Sure, I can omit it, which is fine, but I thought the idea of the theory was to predict every note. I might be wrong about that -- this sort of theory is pretty new to me.
Feels a little like economic theory. It works, until it doesn't work. Maybe that's not fair to either field.
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Because Db7 contains leading tone Cb/B and tri-tone F-Cb, I think of it as related to the G7 dominant.
Because Dbma7 contains F-Ab-C, I think of it as a related to a minor sub-dominant sound.
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Thats the way I like to think too. Look at a song like Satellite (J. Coltrane). The chords fly by too quickly to be conceptualizing key centers. Thinking of chords (either those on the page or substitutions) leads to “vertical” playing that is clear (because your lines imply chord changes). Originally Posted by fep
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Thanks. If you would be kind enough to comment a bit further ... how do these two ways of thinking about it inform how you solo? Originally Posted by bako
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OMG I just sussed that ..... ! Originally Posted by bako
It just clicked ....OMG
It's functioning as a Bbmin .... yeah
(For me anyway)
Many thanks bako
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One approach for key center usage... is to add notes from key or key center to chord tones of non diatonic chords... old and extremely vanilla.... but when you make analysis of tune.... The Db7 is sub for V7 of V- in Relative Parallel Fmin.
So your in Fmaj. Key Center area.... in Bar 5 you move to Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian.
Now the Db7 is the tritone sub of G7 or V7 of C-7 aeolian.... In the Key Center of Fmin. The G7 is a secondary V7 chord of a diatonic chord of Fmin. Aeolian...F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F....that is the diatonic scale, F aeolian. .
The V7 or Secondary Dominant chord of C-7 would be G7... G B D F.... the Tri-tone is B and F....
So you flip.. (invert), and make new V7 chord.... B and F become F and B as 3rd and 7th... becomes Db7... Db F Ab and B(Cb)
That is the tri-tone sub of G7...or Db7.... now fill in the rest of chord extended notes from The New Implied Key Center of Fmin Aeolian.... F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F
Db7.... Db F Ab Cb(B).... add 9th..Eb, 11th which becomes #11 or "G", then the 13th which is Bb
You get Db7 9, #11, 13... Db Lydian Dominant or any number of other names.... Db7#11 is typical spelling for charts.
The point is the chord had the same notes as IV chord from Ab melodic minor.... but doesn't have a functional relationship.... just chance. At least that was how it was explained to me 50 years ago.....
Of course... then Jazz harmony exploded.... and common practice developed....New harmonic relationships developed, our eyes found what we were already hearing and using. Melodic minor as more than an embellishment, modal expanded harmonic possibilities yada yada.
Bar 6 goes back to Fmaj right.... sometimes what I think is obvious isn't...
Rag... you know I was joking... yea.
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Trying to follow this. Originally Posted by Reg
Why do you get Cm aeolian out of an Fm key center? How do you get three flats in a key center of four flats. Why isn't this phrygian? (Please let me know if this is out of some well known theory that I haven't studied).
To my simple way of thinking, tritone sub of VofV is "approach from half step up". And, thinking this simple way makes the "explanation" of Db7 vs Db vs Dbmaj7 easier. Same concept, slightly different voice leading.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think he means that the V chord in minor (Aeolian) is mi7 - which it is.
Hence - the motivation for/utility of Harmonic Minor. It raises the seventh tone which gives us our preferred Dom 7 chord, even when we're in minor.
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In any case, the bVI7 is a stretch. It's not what the song includes, nor what the composer intended.
The bVI chord is a very expressive modal interchange chord.
It wasn't inserted by accident here, not even close.
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You've gone off into theory. The tune is Wonderful World and the chord is Db major. The melody note is F and starts on the Dm7, through the Db to the C7, except it's preceded by the ii of C7 (Gm7). The Db breaks up the backing and introduces some flavour and interest.
You could certainly relate the Db to G7 as it follows the Dm7 and the roots are tritones but I think that misses the whole point of that chord at that point. That sound is there for a reason.
I'm sure if the composer wanted it to be G7, which would be logical after the Dm7, he'd have put G7! It suits the tune perfectly well. In fact, he may well have originally composed it like that - only maybe he had an inspiration and changed it. It's not a new trick.
Vertically, the notes go:
A - Ab - G
F - F - (F)
D - Db - C
It probably doesn't matter much whether you play Db, DbM7 or Db7, it's just a passing sound, albeit for one bar. Solo-wise you can play what you like over it as long as it's in keeping with the rest of the tune.
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Listen to the descending fill line at 1:40 What do you hear?
And again, the piano fill at 0:22 (which goes over the bar line back into F major). Later fills on that chord too.
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Is that for me? I hear Db major, both times. Big surprise!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Lol. But theory is extracted from practice, remember? Repeated practice, that is. As in, over and over. But you agree anyway, so it's all good.
And you've gone off into theory as well, so I might as well point out that Gmi7 is the ii of F, not C. The ii of C would be some kind of D.
And I beg to differ on your last statement. It most certainly does matter what you play there, at least for the head, because of listener expectations. Those other chords sound like crap on this song (at least relative to the original). The audience would likely think "WTF did you just do to one of my favorite songs?" I don't think its merely a passing sound, as used here. It's a big point of poignant emphasis. We can play harmony, line and and reharm games all day long for fun, but what is the point of playing a true classic like this if you're going to go out of you're way to mangle the best part?
OTOH I could always be wrong! Someone please upload your take with Db7 or DbMaj7 etc., or go do it live. Then we will see how well it goes over with the listeners. I'll keep an open mind, we can do an A/B test, original vs. sub.
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Not exclusively, no. Why? Originally Posted by ragman1
Besides, clearly I meant in the melodic lines. Obviously the chord is Db.
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It would help if you refer to which recording and clock time where you hear the thing you are referring to. Originally Posted by Vladan
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I refuse to get into this, it's getting stupid. Gm7 is the ii of C7. Gm7-C7 is a ii-V.
You know I could do it a hundred ways using Db, DbM7 or Db7, it makes no difference. But I'd use Db because that's the chord. As for mangling something, I don't know what you're talking about.Last edited by ragman1; 10-30-2018 at 05:44 AM.
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There's only that piano twinkle. It goes Db-Eb-F-Ab-Eb-Db-C-Bb-(C). That's a major line over Db. Sorry, but so what? Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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No my friend. The ii of anything is a second away, or one alpha letter away, not four. Originally Posted by ragman1
One example of the ii of C7 woud be Dmi7, because we'd be in C Mixolydian mode.
Cheers.
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Anything you say :-)
It's actually called the ii of V, but we won't get into that...
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Reg wrote Bar 5 you move to Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian.
I'm just trying to understand this much. Thanks in advance for any help.
I thought that "F minor key center" meant four flats, same as Abmajor. Is that not correct?
The V chord has C as the root, and can be fleshed out with Eb G and Bb. Cm7. So, I understand that the V-m7 chord is Cm7. But why aeolian? It comes from Fm -- four flats. Cm7 aeolian, I thought, has three flats. Or, more specifically, it has a D, not the Db that Fmin would suggest. What am I missing?
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I understand. Reg uses shorthand a lot though. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
So a phrase like "Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian."
can be interpreted as:
"Parallel "F" Min. Key Center, Which has a V-7 chord, C-7 aeolian, as long as the F minor we're talking about is aeolian/natural minor, as opposed to melodic and harmonic minor, in which case the V chord would be V7"
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