Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group

[joe2758]

today i did rhythm changes and blues in C in 5th-ish position (lower and higher register). worked up from 100-190, and i think I bassssically getting 190-- or at least nearly there. I did 200 and 210 individual scales with beats in between.

Then, when I was doing that, I isolated my picking and determined that's likely my problem (I've NEVER worked on my picking hand, besides classical). So then I tried that nerdy grip you guys do where it slants up instead of down, and I'll tell you what it felt smoother and no so foreign that it would take a long time to get used to.

So I'll spend the rest of my practice session doing the outlines with this new pick angle

[Petimar]

you guys still plugging away at the lesson?

Yes I am. Feeling comfortable with blues and rhythm in all keys, so I am adding a bunch of other tunes and applying the scales to them, thus the questions. Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread.

[joe2758]

Hi-jack away!

This new pick angle friggin rules, I was connecting the scales at 200 already. I don't think I've made an improvement that quickly and easily in my life. There is hope yet

[christianm77]

What like Benson picking?

[joe2758]

What like Benson picking?

from the electric guitar picture to the acoustic guitar way

[joe2758]

if i had to guess it's because the new way i naturally have more of an angle...the pick was more flat my old way. the direction of the angle i guess doesn't matter much?

edit: correction, I re-examined and before I was pretty much flat even though I thought i angled

[wzpgsr]

Yes. That's the basic way we do ....

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Bb7 Bo7 Cm basically

If you want to bring out the m7b5, you can play the m6/dim (Am6 = F#m7b5 for instance.)

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Dm6 Do7 Cm

Thanks. I think it's that Bo7 that I stumble with. Minor ii-V-i lines starting out with Bb7 scale sound great, but unlike the major ii-V-I, where you can keep going with the Bb7, you need a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the G7b9. Are you hearing "move into Do", or are you hearing, "flat the 9 of Bb7"? Sorry to derail—this is something I've been wondering about for a while.

[wzpgsr]

you guys still plugging away at the lesson?

Not as dedicated as I'd like to be, but doing my best. I am sticking within the fingering limitations imposed on my by Richie Zellon at this point—helps to keep me focused when I don't have a ton of time. I am not concerning myself with speed too much–working at 140 bpm for now.

[rlrhett]

Ok, just to keep me honest. Here is after one week of practice. Again, a rough take with mistakes and all. Not going for a performance piece here!

[christianm77]

if i had to guess it's because the new way i naturally have more of an angle...the pick was more flat my old way. the direction of the angle i guess doesn't matter much?

edit: correction, I re-examined and before I was pretty much flat even though I thought i angled

Well you wouldn't fingerpick with your nails parallel to the strings, would you?

EDIT: before I realised this I used to use very think picks with slanted sides of a bevel in them - Dunlop Big Stubby's, Wegen's, that sort of thing. The effect is the same - to create an angle in the pick as it meets the string.

[christianm77]

Thanks. I think it's that Bo7 that I stumble with. Minor ii-V-i lines starting out with Bb7 scale sound great, but unlike the major ii-V-I, where you can keep going with the Bb7, you need a little sumthin'-sumthin' on the G7b9. Are you hearing "move into Do", or are you hearing, "flat the 9 of Bb7"? Sorry to derail—this is something I've been wondering about for a while.

Yeah I think the basic way of doing this AFAIK is just playing some line on the Bb7 and then linking it to the Cm chord or whatever using the diminished seventh arpeggio to make a stepwise connection with an obvious chord tone of the next chord. For instance:

Dm7b5 G7b9 | Cm6

Using Bb7 on Dm7b5

F Eb D C B D F Ab | G
D C Bb A Ab B D F | Eb
Bb A Ab G F Ab B D | Eb

etc

Simple, but effective.

If you don't want to spend ages playing the dim7 and sound like Yngwie on a prog like WITCL I would suggest only doing it at the last minute.

So
Gm7b5 | C7b9 | Fm

Play on Eb7 for a bar and a bit and then just use the dim7 to link at the end of bar two. So it's kinda

Gm7b5 | / / C7b9 | Fm

Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.

[christianm77]

Oh I forgot my favourite

Eb D C Bb B D F Ab | G

See that neat little enclosure of the 3rd of G7b9?

[tamirgal]

Nice examples. Obviously same diminished ideas can also be played on major ii-V-I as well. And also, each diminished line or arpeggio can be pivoted which gives even more options.

Here's a compilation of diminished lines that resolves to a minor chord. All those line start on the third of the dominant, and each line has its related pivoted line:

Diminished Resolution.pdf - Google Drive

Most of these lines are commonly used by either Barry or Charlie Parker. Those are just examples, I guess lots of other options to play when reaching the third of the dominant.

Hope it's useful.

[tamirgal]

I would suggest only doing it at the last minute.

So
Gm7b5 | C7b9 | Fm

Play on Eb7 for a bar and a bit and then just use the dim7 to link at the end of bar two. So it's kinda

Gm7b5 | / / C7b9 | Fm

Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.

Right, so for bar two, Barry say to play Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7. So I can almost hear him say, for bar two continue your Eb7 idea, and when you reach the 3rd of C7 just play some diminished lick.

[tamirgal]

Here's a line Barry played on Hot House:



On the Dm7b5 he plays a Bb7 line - start on the 6th of Bb7, put 1 half step to reach the 5th, and from there down the important minor arpeggio.
Then on the G7 he continue the Bb7 line, from the 4th of Bb7 down the scale till reaching the 3rd of G7, and from there a diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of C. Then he continues by playing his "4" and then his "3" phrase.

Playing that 4 phrase right after that diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of the I is something he seem to do often, both are common bebop enclosures.

[joe2758]

Well you wouldn't fingerpick with your nails parallel to the strings, would you.

omg i bet that’s why they threw tomatos at me and pulled me off the stage with a giant hook lol

edit: into a vat of cream pies

[christianm77]

Here's a line Barry played on Hot House:



On the Dm7b5 he plays a Bb7 line - start on the 6th of Bb7, put 1 half step to reach the 5th, and from there down the important minor arpeggio.
Then on the G7 he continue the Bb7 line, from the 4th of Bb7 down the scale till reaching the 3rd of G7, and from there a diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of C. Then he continues by playing his "4" and then his "3" phrase.

Playing that 4 phrase right after that diminished enclosure resolving to the 5th of the I is something he seem to do often, both are common bebop enclosures.

A slightly more advanced application, but the same basic logic.

EDIT - that leap from F to Eb is a nice example of a pivot in a scale.

[Petimar]

If you want to bring out the m7b5, you can play the m6/dim (Am6 = F#m7b5 for instance.)

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --> Dm6 Do7 Cm

Christian, here do you mean Fm6 Do7 Cm?

By the way, thanks to everyone for the half diminished discussion. I must be thick headed but Ive rally had trouble wrapping my head around how it works...

[christianm77]

Yes

[christianm77]

Fm6 Fo7 Cm6

[wzpgsr]

Yeah I think the basic way of doing this AFAIK is just playing some line on the Bb7 and then linking it to the Cm chord or whatever using the diminished seventh arpeggio to make a stepwise connection with an obvious chord tone of the next chord. For instance:

Now, there's lots of other strategies, but that does well as a start.

If I may say so, you’ve given me a serious jazz bone. Your posts connects a lot of “how to apply this stuff” BH dots for me. Thank you.

[joe2758]

Did rhythm changes and blues in Ab in 4th-ish position. 100-180 clean enough. 190-200 with breaks between phrases. 210 for shits (can play some scales up...that's about it).

Even though I'm not playing faster than last time, the new pick angle still feels smoother.

if anyone is bored, try playing all the scales down..or every other scale down from the 7th. I do it at the slower tempos when I'm getting warmed up sometimes. I think in the workshop book it says a one bar phrase is a scale "up or down"

[tamirgal]

EDIT - that leap from F to Eb is a nice example of a pivot in a scale.

Nice observation. Now I’m noticing he’s doing this quite often.

[joe2758]

Chris has done a great job organizing the material, and i am also going to take a few liberties in terms of the study group (hey, no one else volunteerd!)

so, i am officially adding Chris’ lesson #6 for long term study. That means it is such a large undertaking that i personally think we should all practice it everyday. I know all these patterns by now, but playing them at real tempos is challenging, plus some of the grips have stretches.

4 scales of chords, drop 2 has 3 string sets, drop 3 has 2 string sets, drop 2&4 has 2 string sets (everyone seems to agree these should be a secondary priority, but they can be VERY nice for solo guitar arrangements).

The original assigment hasn’t changed but this is added and will be there for the duration of the group or until you can play them like Pasquale Grasso.

[christianm77]

Working through this solo today - It's hard not to hear Grant Green as a Barry student* lol. Gm6/dim

On transcribing the solo, the number of times he plays that little D Eb D C Bb A G F# A C Eb phrase is actually quite droll. Works great though. Don't be afraid of repetition.

* I don't think he was lol. PC on the session, though.