Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group

[christianm77]

It would be better to spend the whole month on dominant than major

[rlrhett]

How you guys doing on this? and How are you doing this?

I went back to boot camp style rote practicing. I just seem to always get the most out of that even though it can be boring.

I haven’t been pressing speed, instead once ai reach 160 I move on to the next position. So even though I’m not getting faster, the thinking required has shrunk to almost nothing.

the triplets are the biggest challenge because it requires an expanded position in order to slur them.

Doing major shouldn’t be too bad, but i’ll have to make sure i don’t spend the whole month on dominant.

Don’t forget you can do melodic minor too.

two more months til Toronto!

Speed has never been my focus as much as reducing thinking time, but I know it it really important to many players. My speed did improve exponentially when I realized that the issue was my right hand more than my left.

Over many posts I have seen you talk about speed. I'm sure you are blazing fast already, but I can pass along a recommendation for building speed. A year ago I bought the "Pick Slanting Primer" from Troy Grady. I know he gets bashed a lot here for being a "shred" player and not a proper "jazz" player. There seems to be some sneering disdain for anyone who bothers to deeply analyze Yngwe Malmsteen.

But speed is speed, an his course is unlike ANYTHING else I've ever come across. It is all about the mechanics of playing fast. Like a science based analysis of a swim stroke for an athlete. Have you ever looked into it? It has nothing to do with WHAT notes you pick, but how to pick them lightning fast. It was transformative for me. Don't let jazz snobbery keep you from checking it out. It might unlock 240bpm faster than anything else, if that's your main goal.

[tamirgal]

Speed has never been my focus as much as reducing thinking time, but I know it it really important to many players. My speed did improve exponentially when I realized that the issue was my right hand more than my left.

Over many posts I have seen you talk about speed. I'm sure you are blazing fast already, but I can pass along a recommendation for building speed. A year ago I bought the "Pick Slanting Primer" from Troy Grady. I know he gets bashed a lot here for being a "shred" player and not a proper "jazz" player. There seems to be some sneering disdain for anyone who bothers to deeply analyze Yngwe Malmsteen.

But speed is speed, an his course is unlike ANYTHING else I've ever come across. It is all about the mechanics of playing fast. Like a science based analysis of a swim stroke for an athlete. Have you ever looked into it? It has nothing to do with WHAT notes you pick, but how to pick them lightning fast. It was transformative for me. Don't let jazz snobbery keep you from checking it out. It might unlock 240bpm faster than anything else, if that's your main goal.

That’s an off topic but Troy Grady’s site has lots of jazz related stuff on his site. The Martin Miller and Jimmy Bruno interviews are just example.

[tamirgal]

How you guys doing on this? and How are you doing this?

I went back to boot camp style rote practicing. I just seem to always get the most out of that even though it can be boring.

I haven’t been pressing speed, instead once ai reach 160 I move on to the next position. So even though I’m not getting faster, the thinking required has shrunk to almost nothing.

the triplets are the biggest challenge because it requires an expanded position in order to slur them.

Doing major shouldn’t be too bad, but i’ll have to make sure i don’t spend the whole month on dominant.

Don’t forget you can do melodic minor too.

two more months til Toronto!

I do what I can with 15 minutes practice every morning. Will be able to cover F and Bb keys.
On weekends I spend some more time building lines and improvising. Will try to post a video next week.

[tamirgal]

I stumbled on this video completely by chance, but I think it's the best presentation of the half-step rules I've seen. He starts out going through a thorough demonstration of all of the basic rules, but then moves into a discussion of applying the half-step rules to II-Vs using the dominant 7 substitutions—"playing with your brothers and sisters". It's organized, presented, and explained very well. It was ear-opening to hear all the various applications of the half-step rules with different dominant subs.

That’s a great vid.
Saw it on my YT feed many times but never clicked it. The guy put up some great examples

[wzpgsr]

That’s a great vid.
Saw it on my YT feed many times but never clicked it. The guy put up some great examples

If you poke around on his channel you’ll find he’s got a video on half-step rules for major scales, applying the diminished-sixth harmonic stuff on a blues, then a video applying the half-step rules over the blues. It’s really a nice little...package.

[grahambop]

I stumbled on this video completely by chance, but I think it's the best presentation of the half-step rules I've seen. He starts out going through a thorough demonstration of all of the basic rules, but then moves into a discussion of applying the half-step rules to II-Vs using the dominant 7 substitutions—"playing with your brothers and sisters". It's organized, presented, and explained very well. It was ear-opening to hear all the various applications of the half-step rules with different dominant subs.

If you look through the YouTube comments for this video, someone has transcribed the whole lesson (in 2 parts) and provided 2 google drive links to pdfs you can save.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I stumbled on this video completely by chance, but I think it's the best presentation of the half-step rules I've seen. He starts out going through a thorough demonstration of all of the basic rules, but then moves into a discussion of applying the half-step rules to II-Vs using the dominant 7 substitutions—"playing with your brothers and sisters". It's organized, presented, and explained very well. It was ear-opening to hear all the various applications of the half-step rules with different dominant subs.

Yeah. I really liked his presentation as well. I never had a problem with the halfstep rules per se, but integrating them musically in a non mind-numbing way was a problem for me. The way he applies them with arpeggio-up scale-down was really helpful . It makes it more concretely musical. Maybe it's been presented somewhere else and I just missed it , but again, really good.

[christianm77]

Yeah. I really liked his presentation as well. I never had a problem with the halfstep rules per se, but integrating them musically in a non mind munching way was an problem for me. The way he applies them with arpeggio-up scale-down was really helpful . It makes it more concretely musical. Maybe it's been presented somewhere else and I just missed it , but again, really good.

I present it like that haha

[wzpgsr]

I present it like that haha

A big part of it, for me, is his left-hand providing a harmonic reference—especially when he gets to the brothers and sisters. There’s always a gap for me between this kind of exercise and playing jazz—I’ve been transcribing some BH keeping my ears open for these concepts in his playing. It always come back to rhythm and feel to me. So many ways to phrase even just a line of eighths

[rlrhett]

A big part of it, for me, is his left-hand providing a harmonic reference—especially when he gets to the brothers and sisters. There’s always a gap for me between this kind of exercise and playing jazz—I’ve been transcribing some BH keeping my ears open for these concepts in his playing. It always come back to rhythm and feel to me. So many ways to phrase even just a line of eighths

Chris has made wonderful videos, and I take Christian at his word that he teaches his students the same. But there was something about seeing the two hands of a pianist that really helped make these concepts musical. There is the left hand that gives the reference with shell voicing (which I've now incorporated into my half step exercises). There is also the easy ability to see where he starts and stops his lines and what notes he is playing. It's just right there.

It is not always clear to me with Chris. In Chris' videos he often adds an extraneous tail to the line, or in some way unintentionally obfuscates what he is doing. Plus his tone is so jarring with that Strat that it is hard to hear the musicality in the lines. I have no doubt it sounds really good in an ensemble, but raw like that it has been a bit hard on the ears. The piano, by contrast, is such a familiar sound I could digest the lines instantly.

None of that to detract the amazing good work Chris has done. It is ridiculous to me that a guy can eat a bowl of Pho the size of a baptismal font and get three million views and Chris' lifetime of work get a few thousand --if he's lucky. But this piano teacher helped a lot in making these rules accessible and musical.

[christianm77]

Wow I don’t find Chris’s tone jarring in the slightest.

The two hand thing on the piano is a good point. I think I have just got to the point where I don’t really give a **** what a line sounds like harmonically against the background harmony, weird as that may sound. I kind of am much more interested in the way the line sounds in isolation and the way it resolves.

But I can understand that others do want to hear it.

I might start using my Gamechanger pedal for video demonstrations then like Jordan does with his .

[matt.guitarteacher]

I present it like that haha

Really curious on your take with this. Do you teach all the iterations in one or two positions , or do you teach one at a time, like "from the third" in ALL positions for a while?

[christianm77]

Really curious on your take with this. Do you teach all the iterations in one or two positions , or do you teach one at a time, like "from the third" in ALL positions for a while?

I tend to get students to do several in position and then change. I do usually encourage students to try different fingerings at first.

But no reason not to mix it up.

[christianm77]

If you get them to do it through a bit of a tune, like rhythm changes bridge and keep it in the same area of the neck it’s more music related.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks

[christianm77]

Actually thinking about it, I do more conscious positional work when running scale outlines. Everything is based on one octave scale shapes because that's the only way I could every get the exercises up to speed myself. Full 6 string positions were too cumbersome for me. No one wants to hear more than an octave of a scale in this music anyway....

[tamirgal]

Chris has made wonderful videos, and I take Christian at his word that he teaches his students the same. But there was something about seeing the two hands of a pianist that really helped make these concepts musical. There is the left hand that gives the reference with shell voicing (which I've now incorporated into my half step exercises). There is also the easy ability to see where he starts and stops his lines and what notes he is playing. It's just right there.

It is not always clear to me with Chris. In Chris' videos he often adds an extraneous tail to the line, or in some way unintentionally obfuscates what he is doing. Plus his tone is so jarring with that Strat that it is hard to hear the musicality in the lines. I have no doubt it sounds really good in an ensemble, but raw like that it has been a bit hard on the ears. The piano, by contrast, is such a familiar sound I could digest the lines instantly.

None of that to detract the amazing good work Chris has done. It is ridiculous to me that a guy can eat a bowl of Pho the size of a baptismal font and get three million views and Chris' lifetime of work get a few thousand --if he's lucky. But this piano teacher helped a lot in making these rules accessible and musical.

I love Chris’s line endings. I think it worth adding to our vocabulary. It’s part of what make him sound like Barry.
We should know how to end lines.

Oh, and it seem he got a new tele!

[christianm77]

I think that's the old tele?

When I get back into the Barry stuff seriously (I'm not really working on it atm) I think Chris's lessons present a really well thought out course. All I have to do is send people to his channel...

That said, as a teacher I am starting to realise this approach isn't right for everyone. Some people really struggle with it. I think you have to have your chops together to deal with it. I know it took me ages before I could even vaguely keep up.

I think one thing you really need to practice to deal with a Barry masterclass is to listen and repeat lines verbatim off recordings basically every day.

[tamirgal]

I agree about the chops. I started with Barry’s DVDs back when playing piano. Those scale runs are much easier on the piano. On the guitar is a pain and much more time consuming (luckily though transposing lines to different scales is easier on guitar).

The old tele was a bitten sunburst, with a humbacker. I loved it, not sure why he switched. Though they sound similar. He also got a new amp since then.

[christianm77]

I agree about the chops. I started with Barry’s DVDs back when playing piano. Those scale runs are much easier on the piano. On the guitar is a pain and much more time consuming (luckily though transposing lines to different scales is easier on guitar).

The old tele was a bitten sunburst, with a humbacker. I loved it, not sure why he switched. Though they sound similar. He also got a new amp since then.

It’s fine. We just learn scales on the guitar in an unhelpful way.

[joe2758]

I’m going to take Christian’s advice and stick with dominant for the rest of the month.

Thanks for the troy grady tip i will check that out. I don’t think i have the “need for speed” bug, i just think being able to play around 200 is important for this music

[christianm77]

Yeah - I don’t know how any other Barry heads feel about this, but so many of the applications are about resolving dominants into target chords. In combination with the end phrases I think you dig out workable bop vocab quickly this way.

Let the dominant dominate as Barry says.

It’s not the only thing, but it is quite a lot of it.

[christianm77]

The speed - that’s tough of course. I still struggle with articulation although not raw speed per se. You don’t need to be a Paul Gilbert style shredder but you do need agility.

I think learning to slur in a jazz way is helpful - hammering and pulling off on the off beats onto the beat.

Also, learn to economy pick.

You don’t have to do it this way but those are strategies I find helpful .

Hear the phrase. That’s really important. If you can hear it clearly on your head it’s easier to play.

[joe2758]

Y’all see his latest vid? cool bud powell pedal point thing and a little fluttery triad thing