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Originally Posted by djg
I didn't tell you I wasn't listening to music. I just told you (and anyone else) that my listening skills are not good enough to go into specific details of the recorded music.
Now you will say: Go improve your listening skills, spend as many years as you need for that and until you can clearly hear a Gm 6/b9@#$%^&* chord don't come back.
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07-12-2018 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by VKat
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I have been down the route you seem to be plotting. I regret it.
Jazz is about imagining a melody that will work over the harmony of a song, and then playing it on the fly.
It is about the connection between your ears and your fingers.
There is enough theory available that you can think (overthink?) your way through a tune, but, IMO, a small amount of time spent on developing one's ear is more effective than a large amount of theory.
If you were to transcribe you would find examples of everything -- players using one or another of the minor scales, for example. But, if you continue transcribing, you will also find all kinds of mixing and matching to the point where it's all arguable. There are four notes to hear b6 b7 6 7. None of the theory will replace working with those notes so that you can hear them in your mind.
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I perhaps need to take Mr.B's advice literally.
After learning the classical way of V-I resolutions it's SO difficult to overcome my habits. I like how the great soloists like Joe Pass or Wes or you name it use tensions but once I try to do it myself I feel I play wrong notes. Maybe I'm too addicted to "clean" classical harmony and cannot break that wall.
That's why I have to ask you about specific examples that are considered a 'good taste'. Can you see my point now?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thank you Mr'B for a quick reply.
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Originally Posted by VKat
Originally Posted by VKat
Originally Posted by VKat
Originally Posted by VKat
John
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Originally Posted by VKat
John
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
comping or bass lines. I can appreciate the whole thing, the "integral feel of it" but I cannot clearly hear harmonic context unless it's played on its own as a backing track and is slow enough for me.
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by VKat
Start with chord tones, and minor scales.
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Also I think there is a misconception here based around the idea that better players have more ‘advanced’ note choice.
Until you listen to your favourite players and what they do, for me to say that you’ve already covered the basic options probably seems like a fairy story.
But to me it’s like trying to teach French by describing the grammar.
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Originally Posted by VKat
In that case, forget it and take up something you are already good at.
Or do you think we all started blessed with the ability to work things out by ear?
You have to enjoy the process. Or do you imagine I’m satisfied with my playing?
Here’s a hint - start with song melodies not solos. You can hold a tune a bit?
And don’t try the guitar till you really know the tune.
Next look up the chords in a book, compare tune to chords.
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Originally Posted by djg
Thank you for setting me straight on that!
P.S. Nevertheless I'm always thirsty for knowing how and why things work. Hence I have this 'know before you blow' approach. It's in my nature.
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Often, it isn't about your choice of notes. If you transcribe enough you will find that great players can and do make any note sound good. But, when a lesser mortal plays the same notes it can sound like clams.
The issue is the quality of the overall line.
So, when you use the same scale as a guitarist you love, if your music doesn't sound good, it's the line, not the scale.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I agree, when you're playing up tempo, it's remarkable what you can land on and sound good...if you're outlining changes pretty hard.
But I was transcribing some CC today...you know what he hung on a TON? Roots and thirds.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
And yes, great players can make any note sound good. There was a thread on here not long ago about Wes playing F# over G7. Of course, he didn't lean on it, but he played it as more than a quick passing tone. A book I'm working through right now, Melodic Shapes for the Modern Improviser has lots of examples -- e.g. D# over Dm9, G# against Dm7 (first beat in the measure) etc etc etc.
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So Wes played an F# as a passing note over G7 and that debunks my post?
Seriously, jazz is not magic. What notes do the examples in your book hang on?
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
First note beat one is a G# (page 50)
First note is C# beat one, page 97
First note beat one Eb page 22
First note second beat, G#, page 99
First note second beat A# page 101
Against Gb13b9#9 four beats of eighths: Bb Eb Ab Eb / F# Bb Ab F#.
This isn't unusual stuff. There are lots of outside sounds in jazz and they sound outside because they are not in the usual scales. What makes them work is that they are typically embedded in a line strong enough to create bitonality. The players don't "hang" on them unless they're going for extreme dissonance.
My point is that, speaking for myself, when I focused on theory I inadvertently glossed over this sort of thing.
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First note...first note...first note...
Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?
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Resolutions are typically chord tones or consonant extensions. Sometimes a #11.
There are composers who will end a tune on a #5, but you don't hear that much anymore.
I can't recall resolutions on b7 or b9. Maybe #9, though.
But, I thought this conversation was about more than resolutions.
My point, in response to a question about which minor scale to use, is that great players often mix them up.
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This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.
Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?
Hmmm.
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Tension and release is a really helpful guiding principle. Displacement of lines rhythmically is just basic jazz thing . I don't think you can talk about what's played on downbeat as proving or disproving things in that way. Eighth note lines generally work pretty well when displaced a half beat early or late (or more). They also work really well if you sub eighth note triplets in the same way and then displace THEM in different ways as well.
All of these types of lines basically reference " chord tones on the beat" type of phrasing, but it's nothing like a rule . And "the beat" isn't always on the beat.
Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Last edited by christianm77; 07-13-2018 at 06:55 AM.
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