Minor ii-V resolution options

[VKat]

this makes no sense. how do you expect to learn a style of music without listening? imagine someone trying to learn the blues that way. why is this even thinkable, let alone common, with jazz music?

You need to add capital letters in the beginning of your sentences! (Sorry, it's a common trend on this forum )

I didn't tell you I wasn't listening to music. I just told you (and anyone else) that my listening skills are not good enough to go into specific details of the recorded music.
Now you will say: Go improve your listening skills, spend as many years as you need for that and until you can clearly hear a Gm 6/b9@#$%^&* chord don't come back.

[mr. beaumont]

John! - I was lucky enough to spot one redundant "the" in one of you sentences, I even highlighted (or, my, what a word! - so many gh-gh-gh, I hope I spelled it right) it above. Whoa! I feel a tad better now. (not really as it doesn't add anything to my impro skills).

OK, jokes aside:



Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course).
You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.

Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.

I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.

By the way, you gave a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
"In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."

While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)

It wouldnt, really. Just becomes a #9 on the G7, a totally acceptable sound.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have been down the route you seem to be plotting. I regret it.

Jazz is about imagining a melody that will work over the harmony of a song, and then playing it on the fly.

It is about the connection between your ears and your fingers.

There is enough theory available that you can think (overthink?) your way through a tune, but, IMO, a small amount of time spent on developing one's ear is more effective than a large amount of theory.

If you were to transcribe you would find examples of everything -- players using one or another of the minor scales, for example. But, if you continue transcribing, you will also find all kinds of mixing and matching to the point where it's all arguable. There are four notes to hear b6 b7 6 7. None of the theory will replace working with those notes so that you can hear them in your mind.

[VKat]

I perhaps need to take Mr.B's advice literally.
After learning the classical way of V-I resolutions it's SO difficult to overcome my habits. I like how the great soloists like Joe Pass or Wes or you name it use tensions but once I try to do it myself I feel I play wrong notes. Maybe I'm too addicted to "clean" classical harmony and cannot break that wall.

That's why I have to ask you about specific examples that are considered a 'good taste'. Can you see my point now?

To go back to the question in post 61...

Consider Gm the "tonic of the moment," Figure out what minor scale sounds best to you here, harmonize it, and you've got dozens of options, and a new V to play with...

Keep in mind, if you voice lead interestingly, you could play almost any random clusters of notes with something interesting on too that leads you back to the next Cm...

[VKat]

It wouldnt, really. Just becomes a #9 on the G7, a totally acceptable sound.

I feel silly! Yes, how could I overlook that? Of course from a point of view of G7 Alt which it is in minor it's #9.
Thank you Mr'B for a quick reply.

[John A.]

Thank you John - it's all very interesting but my question was really very simple and specific: I only wanted to know - is it more typical for the "comping man of the moment" to play what they call it a 'vanilla version' of Gm below that long 'Bb' or some kind of dissonant and complex harmony (I assume the latter of course).
You partially answered my question by saying: "It all depends and so on" but to me it says little since I needed a straightforward guidence to the process with a few good and common options.
You then added that it also depends if that long 'Bb' is played as a long note or not and so on. Please understand, I can imagine all that of course but it ruins my original idea. I see I have hard time explaining
what I want to find out and maybe my 'duo example' does not sound realistic - and I admit it.

"It all depends" is a direct and complete answer. I actually gave you quite a bit of specific guidance terms of how I approach comping behind another guitar player. As to your question about who plays colors vs who plays vanilla, the straightforward answer is that it depends. My main duo partner, we both do a bit of both and deploy the various techniques and devices I mentioned. Different people do things differently, at differently times. That's the reality of an improvised art from that doesn't have completely standardized rules and conventions. Very generally and broadly, when you comp you try not fill every harmonic space with a note and leave opening for the soloist, which generally means you play a lot of shell voicings. But if you _only_ play shell voicings and never play a 9, 11, or 13 or altered tone, it gets boring.

Oh, let me clarify what I mean. I of course can use a miriad of harmonic options for that Gm and call it a "good Jazz taste" but since I don't know what real good Jazz taste is I can mislead myself.
I already told Chris that my listening skills are limited. I can appreciate a big picture of what Joe Pass plays (his magic) but I never analyse it. I have no time for that.

There is no single definition of good taste. All you can do is practice, play, listen, and develop your own sense of good taste, that (hopefully) is shared by at least some others. You probably will not develop good taste by asking strangers what constitutes good taste. You probably will if you work/play/study with others and take the time to analyze music you would like to emulate.

I feel that for some of you my questions may sound silly. Please take me as I am and be gracious.

I don't know about silly, but they seem uninformed by real experience. You're getting good answers from informed and experienced players. Rejecting that and insisting that we tell you precisely what you're asking is unproductive. Jazz is an ensemble improvisational art form that is learned primarily by DOING with other people, not by talking and intellectualizing with strangers on the internet.

By the way, you gave a good idea about turning back to Cm7:
"In terms of specific harmony ideas, a common thing to do on Autumn Leaves is to play a G7 (altered) on bar 8 to turnaround to the Cm. So then it becomes a matter of how you want to get to that G7. E.g., you could just play straight 1 bar of Gm (with or without extensions) and 1 bar of G7, or only play the G7 for the last two beats of bar 8, or harmonize a walking bass line, or back cycle to the G7, etc., etc., etc."

While it's beyond the idea in my question it gives me more food for thought. However, If one decided to swith to G7 from Gm over the head how would it affect the Bb in the melody? (in any of the 2 bars?)

If you voice the chord so that the B natural is an octave below the Bb in the melody (last note of bar 8) almost any flavor of G7 will sound fine. In effect the two players form a G7#9 chord (in passing). Yes, there would be dissonance/tension, but in passing on the way to resolution, that sounds good. Play it. That's the only way to find out if you like it.

John

[John A.]

John, I'm sorry for misspelling those words. I've corrected them in the original post. Honestly, you really put me down with your catch.
Thank you for your detailed answer!

The intent was not to put you down. The intent was to offer a correction to someone who seems not to be a native English speaker.

John

[VKat]

OK, so my last post asked about improv vs. comping but received no response so I guess this is about improvisation.
...
Here are two melodic improv masters with a very strong rhythm section, to say the least. Check out what they do with the chord in question. Also listen to the bass line and piano voicings.

Sorry but that's beyond my listening skills to pick out individual parts and analyze them, especially if it concerns
comping or bass lines. I can appreciate the whole thing, the "integral feel of it" but I cannot clearly hear harmonic context unless it's played on its own as a backing track and is slow enough for me.

[VKat]

...You're getting good answers from informed and experienced players. Rejecting that and insisting that we tell you precisely what you're asking is unproductive. Jazz is an ensemble improvisational art form that is learned primarily by DOING with other people, not by talking and intellectualizing with strangers on the internet.
...
John

John, you are perfectly right and I see what you are getting at. That's my problem: I'm a lone wolf and I cannot change myself. I understand that with such an approach I can at best become only a shadow of a solo Jazz musician but if I can achieve just that that would be my ultimate goal.

[christianm77]

It's both, it's about interaction of a guitar duo (it could be a BigBand and a soloist but I simplified it to avoid additional complications). Something like what John said in his post:

John.A: "It isn't a matter of one player improvising and the other providing color or enhancement; they are both improvising, switching off between the comping and soloing roles."

I'm reading all your replies at the moment, thank you for answering - all forum members who cared tro reply.

To Chris: I'm a 'weekend warrior' and for me it's much easier to find answers from my experienced forum friends rather than spend much of my precious time figuring out things from records. If I know what to look for it's much easier for me to confirm that in a listening session. I have no one to check my conclusions in person so I can only rely on your help.

Post your conclusions here and we can check them for you.

Start with chord tones, and minor scales.

[christianm77]

Also I think there is a misconception here based around the idea that better players have more ‘advanced’ note choice.

Until you listen to your favourite players and what they do, for me to say that you’ve already covered the basic options probably seems like a fairy story.

But to me it’s like trying to teach French by describing the grammar.

[christianm77]

Sorry but that's beyond my listening skills to pick out individual parts and analyze them, especially if it concerns
comping or bass lines. I can appreciate the whole thing, the "integral feel of it" but I cannot clearly hear harmonic context unless it's played on its own as a backing track and is slow enough for me.

Not a growth mindset.

In that case, forget it and take up something you are already good at.

Or do you think we all started blessed with the ability to work things out by ear?

You have to enjoy the process. Or do you imagine I’m satisfied with my playing?

Here’s a hint - start with song melodies not solos. You can hold a tune a bit?

And don’t try the guitar till you really know the tune.

Next look up the chords in a book, compare tune to chords.

[VKat]

then none of this is even relevant for you. learn some nice arrangements instead.post them here to improve.

That's a good suggestion. I have quite a few (perhaps a dozen!) "chord-melody" books (really good ones) in which I could probably find even direct answers to my question on what color options I could apply to minor chords. How could I forget about all those good books?

Thank you for setting me straight on that!

P.S. Nevertheless I'm always thirsty for knowing how and why things work. Hence I have this 'know before you blow' approach. It's in my nature.

[rpjazzguitar]

Often, it isn't about your choice of notes. If you transcribe enough you will find that great players can and do make any note sound good. But, when a lesser mortal plays the same notes it can sound like clams.

The issue is the quality of the overall line.

So, when you use the same scale as a guitarist you love, if your music doesn't sound good, it's the line, not the scale.

[mr. beaumont]

Often, it isn't about your choice of notes. If you transcribe enough you will find that great players can and do make any note sound good. But, when a lesser mortal plays the same notes it can sound like clams.

Ah, do they though? Sounds like Internet wisdom to me.

I agree, when you're playing up tempo, it's remarkable what you can land on and sound good...if you're outlining changes pretty hard.

But I was transcribing some CC today...you know what he hung on a TON? Roots and thirds.

[rpjazzguitar]

Ah, do they though? Sounds like Internet wisdom to me.

I agree, when you're playing up tempo, it's remarkable what you can land on and sound good...if you're outlining changes pretty hard.

But I was transcribing some CC today...you know what he hung on a TON? Roots and thirds.

I still love CC, but he was not the most harmonically adventurous player in the history of jazz.

And yes, great players can make any note sound good. There was a thread on here not long ago about Wes playing F# over G7. Of course, he didn't lean on it, but he played it as more than a quick passing tone. A book I'm working through right now, Melodic Shapes for the Modern Improviser has lots of examples -- e.g. D# over Dm9, G# against Dm7 (first beat in the measure) etc etc etc.

[mr. beaumont]

So Wes played an F# as a passing note over G7 and that debunks my post?

Seriously, jazz is not magic. What notes do the examples in your book hang on?

[rpjazzguitar]

So Wes played an F# as a passing note over G7 and that debunks my post?

Seriously, jazz is not magic. What notes do the examples in your book hang on?

ii V I in C

First note beat one is a G# (page 50)
First note is C# beat one, page 97
First note beat one Eb page 22
First note second beat, G#, page 99
First note second beat A# page 101

Against Gb13b9#9 four beats of eighths: Bb Eb Ab Eb / F# Bb Ab F#.

This isn't unusual stuff. There are lots of outside sounds in jazz and they sound outside because they are not in the usual scales. What makes them work is that they are typically embedded in a line strong enough to create bitonality. The players don't "hang" on them unless they're going for extreme dissonance.

My point is that, speaking for myself, when I focused on theory I inadvertently glossed over this sort of thing.

[mr. beaumont]

First note...first note...first note...

Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?

[rpjazzguitar]

Resolutions are typically chord tones or consonant extensions. Sometimes a #11.

There are composers who will end a tune on a #5, but you don't hear that much anymore.

I can't recall resolutions on b7 or b9. Maybe #9, though.

But, I thought this conversation was about more than resolutions.

My point, in response to a question about which minor scale to use, is that great players often mix them up.

[Jazzstdnt]

This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.

Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?

Hmmm.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Tension and release is a really helpful guiding principle. Displacement of lines rhythmically is just basic jazz thing . I don't think you can talk about what's played on downbeat as proving or disproving things in that way. Eighth note lines generally work pretty well when displaced a half beat early or late (or more). They also work really well if you sub eighth note triplets in the same way and then displace THEM in different ways as well.

All of these types of lines basically reference " chord tones on the beat" type of phrasing, but it's nothing like a rule . And "the beat" isn't always on the beat.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

Tension and release is a really helpful guiding principle. Displacement of lines rhythmically is just basic jazz thing . I don't think you can talk about what's played on downbeat as proving or disproving things in that way. Eighth note lines generally work pretty well when displaced a half beat early or late (or more). They also work really well if you sub eighth note triplets in the same way and then displace THEM in different ways as well.

All of these types of lines basically reference " chord tones on the beat" type of phrasing, but it's nothing like a rule . And "the beat" isn't always on the beat.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

All good points. I wrote about playing unexpected tones on the first beat of a measure to make the point that it isn't simply passing tones on weak beats. I suppose someone could say that starting 4 beats of Dm7 with a C# or G# is putting the passing tone first (because it soon resolves). But, this gets away from what I thought was the issue. That is, if you think too rigidly about scales you can miss how much jazz departs from the rigid ideas about scales.

[christianm77]

First note...first note...first note...

Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?

You can play anything you like on a dominant provided you know how to resolve.

[christianm77]

This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.

Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?

Hmmm.

You may be right :-)