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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So Wes played an F# as a passing note over G7 and that debunks my post?

    Seriously, jazz is not magic. What notes do the examples in your book hang on?
    ii V I in C

    First note beat one is a G# (page 50)
    First note is C# beat one, page 97
    First note beat one Eb page 22
    First note second beat, G#, page 99
    First note second beat A# page 101

    Against Gb13b9#9 four beats of eighths: Bb Eb Ab Eb / F# Bb Ab F#.

    This isn't unusual stuff. There are lots of outside sounds in jazz and they sound outside because they are not in the usual scales. What makes them work is that they are typically embedded in a line strong enough to create bitonality. The players don't "hang" on them unless they're going for extreme dissonance.

    My point is that, speaking for myself, when I focused on theory I inadvertently glossed over this sort of thing.

  2. #122
    First note...first note...first note...

    Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  3. #123
    Resolutions are typically chord tones or consonant extensions. Sometimes a #11.

    There are composers who will end a tune on a #5, but you don't hear that much anymore.

    I can't recall resolutions on b7 or b9. Maybe #9, though.

    But, I thought this conversation was about more than resolutions.

    My point, in response to a question about which minor scale to use, is that great players often mix them up.

  4. #124
    This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.

    Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?

    Hmmm.

  5. #125
    Tension and release is a really helpful guiding principle. Displacement of lines rhythmically is just basic jazz thing . I don't think you can talk about what's played on downbeat as proving or disproving things in that way. Eighth note lines generally work pretty well when displaced a half beat early or late (or more). They also work really well if you sub eighth note triplets in the same way and then displace THEM in different ways as well.

    All of these types of lines basically reference " chord tones on the beat" type of phrasing, but it's nothing like a rule . And "the beat" isn't always on the beat.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Tension and release is a really helpful guiding principle. Displacement of lines rhythmically is just basic jazz thing . I don't think you can talk about what's played on downbeat as proving or disproving things in that way. Eighth note lines generally work pretty well when displaced a half beat early or late (or more). They also work really well if you sub eighth note triplets in the same way and then displace THEM in different ways as well.

    All of these types of lines basically reference " chord tones on the beat" type of phrasing, but it's nothing like a rule . And "the beat" isn't always on the beat.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    All good points. I wrote about playing unexpected tones on the first beat of a measure to make the point that it isn't simply passing tones on weak beats. I suppose someone could say that starting 4 beats of Dm7 with a C# or G# is putting the passing tone first (because it soon resolves). But, this gets away from what I thought was the issue. That is, if you think too rigidly about scales you can miss how much jazz departs from the rigid ideas about scales.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    First note...first note...first note...

    Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?
    You can play anything you like on a dominant provided you know how to resolve.

  8. #128
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    Minor ii-V resolution options

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.

    Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?

    Hmmm.
    You may be right :-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-13-2018 at 06:55 AM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    ... with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.
    ...
    Is that a complement or what? Why to insult people with an honest and sincere attitude like me?
    Yes, I'm learning and want to find out as much as I can with the help of this forum but I never intended my questions to be comical. I don't do this for fun.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    This thread is really beginning to look like a comic set up, with VKat being the Sacha Baron Cohen of jazz guitar.

    Drawing people off sides (to borrow a football term), for fun?

    Hmmm.
    Would that it were true...

    John

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Resolutions are typically chord tones or consonant extensions. Sometimes a #11.
    There are composers who will end a tune on a #5, but you don't hear that much anymore.
    I can't recall resolutions on b7 or b9. Maybe #9, though.
    But, I thought this conversation was about more than resolutions.
    My point, in response to a question about which minor scale to use, is that great players often mix them up.
    One of the things I still wonder about Jazz is why resolutions on something else other than the triad being the basis of harmonic structure are called "resolutions"?
    For instance in this thread many times a "resolution on the 9th" was suggested. 9th (Maj 2nd) is pretty high in Harmonic Series above the fundamental, in fact it's the 9th harmonic and it's considered a dissonance in the Common Practice Period for a good reason.

    When you start to call it a "consonant extension" how do you perceive its consonant qualities? I mean to me it sounds as a dissonance but...

    Do Jazzers extend their perception on what is "consonant"? Does it happen naturally? I mean all these terms are relative of course but the Harmonic Series are a fact and they clearly outline where a given interval in respect to the Root is located. The farther away from the fundamental the more dissonant it is.
    The resolution is a quiet place, it stands no tension, no need to move on, to resolve further.
    Naturally we want to settle down on a triad which is the most stable and consonant harmony.

    Maybe this term also has a relative meaning? For instance, a "resolution" on the 9th is definitely a resolution compared to a "resolution" on the b9th.

    Once again, I'm not asking this question for fun. It directly relates to my earlier post that still wasn't addressed. Let me remind you about it:

    I asked you about why it is common to "resolve" in minor on the min 6/9 chord. In C-min it is:
    C-Eb-A-D. As I mentioned before this harmony sounds tense and unresolved to me. There are 2 reasons for that:
    1. The tritone betweeb Eb-A. The tritone is always in need of resolution.
    2. C-D containing the 9th I've just mentioned.

    I can accept the idea of a "relative resolution" but how far can one go with extending his acceptance of what can be safely considered as a "reasonable resolution" ?

    Please note that with this question of mine I'm not steering away from my original subject, not even by an inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    ...
    Of course you can play any note on any chord. But what are the resolutions?
    Thank you Mr. B. I'm with you.
    Last edited by VKat; 07-13-2018 at 08:09 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You can play anything you like on a dominant provided you know how to resolve.
    Exactly! That's what I'm saying...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    One of the things I still wonder about Jazz is why resolutions on something else other than the triad being the basis of harmonic structure are called "resolutions"?
    For instance in this thread many times a "resolution on the 9th" was suggested. 9th (Maj 2nd) is pretty high in Harmonic Series above the fundamental, in fact it's the 9th harmonic and it's considered a dissonance in the Common Practice Period for a good reason.

    When you start to call it a "consonant extension" how do you perceive its consonant qualities? I mean to me it sounds as a dissonance but...

    Do Jazzers extend their perception on what is "consonant"? Does it happen naturally? I mean all these terms are relative of course but the Harmonic Series are a fact and they clearly outline where a given interval in respect to the Root is located. The farther away from the fundamental the more dissonant it is.
    The resolution is a quiet place, it stands no tension, no need to move on, to resolve further.
    Naturally we want to settle down on a triad which is the most stable and consonant harmony.

    Maybe this term also has a relative meaning? For instance, a "resolution" on the 9th is definitely a resolution compared to a "resolution" on the b9th.

    Once again, I'm not asking this question for fun. It directly relates to my earlier post that still wasn't addressed. Let me remind you about it:

    I asked you about why it is common to "resolve" in minor on the min 6/9 chord. In C-min it is:
    C-Eb-A-D. As I mentioned before this harmony sounds tense and unresolved to me. There are 2 reasons for that:
    1. The tritone betweeb Eb-A. The tritone is always in need of resolution.
    2. C-D containing the 9th I've just mentioned.

    I can accept the idea of a "relative resolution" but how far can one go with extending his acceptance of what can be safely considered as a "reasonable resolution" ?

    Please note that with this question of mine I'm not steering away from my original subject, not even by an inch.


    Thank you Mr. B. I'm with you.
    I think it sounds unresolved to you because you're not used to it. That simple.

    You're still using your classical harmony lens.

    Now, out of curiosity, try this:

    Play iim7b5--V7alt--im7

    Then iim7b5--V7alt---im6/9

    What sounds more like a point of resolution now?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  14. #134
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    BTW Jeff, Jazz IS magic. Like actual MAGIC.

    But as with all magic, you have to observe the rituals.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    Is that a complement or what? Why to insult people with an honest and sincere attitude like me?
    Yes, I'm learning and want to find out as much as I can with the help of this forum but I never intended my questions to be comical. I don't do this for fun.
    I would hope that you do it for fun on some level, I mean why bother otherwise? I can say from bitter experience there is neither money, nor chicks, nor really much blow in this line of endeavour...

    Anyway, given I think we've been pretty consistent in our advice, irrelevant digressions aside, and now it is up to you to FLIPPING WELL GET ON WITH IT. STOP PROCRASTINATING. You know what you have to do, even though you don't like it. It's like going to the gym.

    We are here to help when you have something concrete - i.e. actual music, recorded or written, whatever.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ...
    STOP PROCRASTINATING. You know what you have to do, even though you don't like it. It's like going to the gym.
    We are here to help when you have something concrete - i.e. actual music, recorded or written, whatever.
    Chris - good and wise words but remember some people are more prone to procrastinating (such a powerful word! - I like it) than others. I'm a well known procrastinator within my circles to be honest. To me procrastination is like a prelude and the actual action is more like the end of an endeavor.
    Please don't be angry with me for that. That's the way I am. No jokes, I'm telling you who I actually am and I'm at the age when it's impossible to change myself.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post

    Now, out of curiosity, try this:

    Play iim7b5--V7alt--im7

    Then iim7b5--V7alt---im6/9

    What sounds more like a point of resolution now?
    Jeff - I see what you are getting at. Even without playing it (I'll explore it later when I'm with my guitar) and at the moment simply procrastinating but looking at the harmonies I can see that both b5 and #5 (b13) of the V Alt will nicely "resolve" on the 9th of 'i' and either b9 or #9 of the V Alt will gravitate towards the 6th of the 'i'.

    Yes, that sounds like a "relative resolution" I've mentioned above. The only problem for me now is to extend my feel of the consonance beyond the basic triad. I can't help looking for resolution of the 9th so far.
    And that tritone...

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ...I can say from bitter experience there is neither money, nor chicks,
    ...
    By the way I prefer to stay away from chicks because once you get at least some money they'll suck it out.

  19. #139
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    I am starting to get a cluster headache.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by VKat View Post
    One of the things I still wonder about Jazz is why resolutions on something else other than the triad being the basis of harmonic structure are called "resolutions"?
    For instance in this thread many times a "resolution on the 9th" was suggested. 9th (Maj 2nd) is pretty high in Harmonic Series above the fundamental, in fact it's the 9th harmonic and it's considered a dissonance in the Common Practice Period for a good reason.

    When you start to call it a "consonant extension" how do you perceive its consonant qualities? I mean to me it sounds as a dissonance but...

    Do Jazzers extend their perception on what is "consonant"? Does it happen naturally? I mean all these terms are relative of course but the Harmonic Series are a fact and they clearly outline where a given interval in respect to the Root is located. The farther away from the fundamental the more dissonant it is.
    The resolution is a quiet place, it stands no tension, no need to move on, to resolve further.
    Naturally we want to settle down on a triad which is the most stable and consonant harmony.

    Maybe this term also has a relative meaning? For instance, a "resolution" on the 9th is definitely a resolution compared to a "resolution" on the b9th.

    Once again, I'm not asking this question for fun. It directly relates to my earlier post that still wasn't addressed. Let me remind you about it:

    I asked you about why it is common to "resolve" in minor on the min 6/9 chord. In C-min it is:
    C-Eb-A-D. As I mentioned before this harmony sounds tense and unresolved to me. There are 2 reasons for that:
    1. The tritone betweeb Eb-A. The tritone is always in need of resolution.
    2. C-D containing the 9th I've just mentioned.

    I can accept the idea of a "relative resolution" but how far can one go with extending his acceptance of what can be safely considered as a "reasonable resolution" ?

    Please note that with this question of mine I'm not steering away from my original subject, not even by an inch.


    Thank you Mr. B. I'm with you.
    "Resolving"? ---> Voice Leading.

    "Expanded consonance for jazzers?" ---> late 19th century Euro art music (heck, even earlier).

    "Consonant extensions?" ---> Available tensions.

    "Tritone always in need of resolution"? ---> refer to the thousands of performances of Jazz Blues tunes which end on a dominant chord, often with tensions. (9, 13)


    Your first post was focused on the IminMaj7 being the "go to" chord for minor II-V-I. But that was incorrect and we established that many posts ago. It's more frequently a Imi or Imi7.

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    ...
    "Expanded consonance for jazzers?" ---> late 19th century Euro art music (heck, even earlier).

    "Consonant extensions?" ---> Available tensions.

    "Tritone always in need of resolution"? ---> refer to the thousands of performances of Jazz Blues tunes which end on a dominant chord, often with tensions. (9, 13)
    ...
    First, regarding Classical: you are right but I'd say Romantic period composers began to loosen up the tradition and later figures like Ravel and Debussy pushed it even further. Yes, Debussy's unresolved chordal "extensions" are not much different from the Jazz harmony.
    However, to be honest I have not much appreciation for the Classical music past JS Bach. Well, Mozart and Bethoven and their contemporaries are still fine for me though.

    Blues: Yes, blues is a completely different story, it's in its own class for me. Blues is a folk music and Jazz-Blues of course bridges the gap.

    Anyway - thank you everyone for participating in this discussion. I got very interesting and useful advice from you all!
    I'm on my way to break out of procrastination and explore all your great advice!

  22. #142
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    Oi VKat - STOP TALKING AND WORK OUT SOME LINES. DEXTER GORDON OR HANK MOBLEY.

  23. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oi VKat - STOP TALKING AND WORK OUT SOME LINES. DEXTER GORDON OR HANK MOBLEY.
    Yes! - I should! - I play sax as well and it's an instrument specifically dedicated to lines.
    Thank you for shaking me up Chris!

  24. #144
    I made up the term "consonant extensions". I thought the meaning was clear enough. It may be the same thing that other people call "extensions"

    I could have said "notes of the 13th chord", since those are the notes that I consider "consonant".

    Other notes (typically called "tensions") seem less consonant to me, but some more than others.

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I made up the term "consonant extensions". I thought the meaning was clear enough. It may be the same thing that other people call "extensions"

    I could have said "notes of the 13th chord", since those are the notes that I consider "consonant".

    Other notes (typically called "tensions") seem less consonant to me, but some more than others.
    Yeah, I agree....

    TBH the only extensions I acknowledge are those on the major and minor chords. (Well maybe the lyd dom depending what day of the week it is.)

    Everything else is voiceleading.

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