Basic Bebop Lines

[VKat]

Hello,
I want to devise a series of simple exercises for myself based on well known basic Bop idioms. I want these exercises to be uniform, dry and at first to keep the number of alterations to a minimum.
I constructed a first portion of long ii-V-I lines that follow a simple formula with the rigid rules:
- Start on ii with an ascending 4-note arpeggio (explore all chord tones and extentions as a starting point)
- Step down on V and resolve to a closest chord tone as soon as possible
- Proceed down in a scalar manner and finish the line with a b9 to 5 resolution on I

The pdf is attached.
What of the given lines would be valid within the basic Bop idiom and what not and why?
Which ones would you not be hesitant to play in a real practice situation and which ones would you label as 'unidiomatic'?

Which particular note choices you don't like in any of the given lines? Please keep in mind the uniform scenario outlined above. There are obviously much better and nicer sounding notes but I want to know if it's possible to be precise in following a given pattern and still stay within the basic valid Bop idiom.

[christianm77]

I’ll post an old vid of mine here as may be of interest

There’s a lot more out there than just this stuff, but it’s amazing how far it gets you...

Barry Harris DVD 1 has kept me going for about 3 years.

[christianm77]

I think you got the right sort of idea.

Suggestions

Lower neighbour tone more common than upper before ascending arpeggio.

Also try arpeggio in triplets

Also apply added note rules for descending scales on G7 (which you do in some but not all) or Db7 for more harmonic colour (or mix them)

Learn to use Bo7 arpeggio to connect to the C chord (not in my vid)

[christianm77]

In the first example I would have Bb Ab G not B Ab G.

[christianm77]

I’ll play through the others and let you know when I get a chance.

[ragman1]

Well, I go by the sound and feel rather than strict analysis. If it sounds good, it is good.

1) Didn't like it (I've played all these lines, by the way). Sounds a bit awkward at the end, a bit contrived.
2) That's okay but still that jump at the end sounds a bit awkward to me.
3) That sounds fine.
4) Not sure of the point of that one. It's all diatonic (which is not a crime but it's not very bebop-y). The only real concession to jazz is that Ab popped in at the end. Probably I'd use Bb as well as Ab. That would improve it.
5) That's an odd one. I'm not convinced by the CM7 over the Dm7 and the Db sounds forced to my ear. The rest is okay.
6) That sounds fine.
7) That's good too, although I think the Ab's unnecessary. Just a normal A would do. That would sound better to me.

[ragman1]

I've googled a bit on this. The best one I've found so far is right here on this site! All these examples sound very, very good to me. Excellent in fact, I don't think you could do better.

20 Classic Bebop Jazz Guitar Licks

[VKat]

In the first example I would have Bb Ab G not B Ab G.

Chris, imagine - that's exactly what I had in that line initially. I think that's an important part of the whole matter and it's a good point to discuss alone.
- First of all I perfectly understand that by having Bb Ab in a raw we have in effect both #9 and b9 at once.
They are of course altered tones for 2 (or 9).

Now, the question is why would you have them in place of just B Ab? If we look at that motion purely from the Classical point of view B Ab is not such a good melodic move: it's an augmented second and in Classical terms it sounds 'bad' though not as bad in this case since the aug 2nd interval reveals itself on upbeat and hence it's somewhat acceptable even in Classical terms.

However we are not in the Classical World by any means and I doubt any notion of aug 2nd as being not good ever come ups in the Bop land.

I put B on the downbeat to maintain my original idea to have as little altered tones in those lines as possible. Can you probably connect this idea with my goal of making these lines as basic as possible? I tried to place as many chord tones on the downbeat over V as possible to complete 2 tasks at once:
- Clearly outline the sound V
- Avoid using unaltered extensions over V

Let's return to that B Ab (Bb Ab) motion in line 1. By having Bb in place of B we place an altered tone (or even a Blue note - whichever you like) on the downbeat and here is a big question for me:
- How idiomatic is it to place altered tones on the downbeat in Bop?

If you noticed I deliberately never placed Ab on the downbeat.
As far as I understand once you place an altered tone over V on the downbeat your obligation (in terms of good musical taste) is to resolve that tension over I in the corresponding place.
Again, in my understanding a good musical taste is to resolve those tensions in reverse order. That is, if for instance we have in our line over G altered tones that come in this order:
x-x-Eb-x - Bb-x-Ab-x we would like them to be resolved as G-x-A-x - x-D-x-x or similar but the order of resolution needs to be maintained.

Actually my last paragraph may suggest that there is no need to resolve Ab at all if it's placed on the upbeat as I did it in all my examples but I noticed that it's placed that way in lines of the masters most of the time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[VKat]

Good points. Does it prove then that it's impossible to conceive such an exercise going 'by numbers' only? That's what I actually did.
However, speaking of #5 for instance, can we consider it a deliberately tense line whose only altimate goal is the resolution and once we arrived at I we say: "Well, that was odd and forced but once we are at proper I that's fine".

Well, I go by the sound and feel rather than strict analysis. If it sounds good, it is good.

1) Didn't like it (I've played all these lines, by the way). Sounds a bit awkward at the end, a bit contrived.
2) That's okay but still that jump at the end sounds a bit awkward to me.
3) That sounds fine.
4) Not sure of the point of that one. It's all diatonic (which is not a crime but it's not very bebop-y). The only real concession to jazz is that Ab popped in at the end. Probably I'd use Bb as well as Ab. That would improve it.
5) That's an odd one. I'm not convinced by the CM7 over the Dm7 and the Db sounds forced to my ear. The rest is okay.
6) That sounds fine.
7) That's good too, although I think the Ab's unnecessary. Just a normal A would do. That would sound better to me.

[christianm77]

So Bb Ab G (#9 b9 to 5 of the next chord) is a really common melodic device in bop lines. Learn a few heads and you’ll see it again and again.

Learn how it sounds and you can play a fun but extremely hazardous drinking game listening to any jazz record made between 1948 and 1959.

In contrast the aug2nd B to Ab is rarer melodically. Most common descending straight through a harmonic minor scale, rare in the context given here.

Theoretically I relate it to either the Bb7 backdoor chord or if it also includes the note B (which is also common) Db7 the tritone.

Hint - don’t think in terms of how it relates to the original chord G7 - think of how it relates to the substitute scale (1 and b7 of Bb7, 6 and 5 of Db7)

B Bb Ab G is very common. I call it the bebop tetrachord. b7 6 5 of Db7 to 5 of C.

(You can also talk about the altered and half whole scale if that floats your boat but this is unnecessary. It all relates to simple dominant/mixo scale subs.)

b3/#2 extremely common against dominants. If you’d analysed some bebop heads you would already know this. So - go analyse the basic jam session bop heads. Donna Lee, Blues for Alice etc. Look out for this stuff.

Also don’t worry about the ii in a ii V. Bop players relate everything to V

[VKat]

...
4) Not sure of the point of that one. It's all diatonic (which is not a crime but it's not very bebop-y). The only real concession to jazz is that Ab popped in at the end. Probably I'd use Bb as well as Ab. That would improve it.
...

By the way, by examining Parker's lines in the Omnibook I noticed many of his lines over V were in fact diatonic. Can we trust to the Bop inventor?

I only followed my initial plan in all of the lines. I actually wrote them not even hearing them hoping they would work simply because of their mostly safe diatonic construction. Now I listened to them and I agree they sound at the very least boring. That B-Ab is definitely too Middle East oriented and turning B into Bb fixes it.

[christianm77]

Look at the last few bars of Donna Lee for a context of where the Aug 2 is used in a bop line

[christianm77]

Look at the last few bars of Donna Lee for a context of where the Aug 2 is used in a bop line. In this case a straight harmonic minor scale.

[VKat]

Chris - thanks, all good points.
There is no need then to explore all the extensions (put in order as I did) over ii, right? Answering my initial set of questions that alone would probably make the whole set of lines unidiomatic.

[ragman1]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

F-a-r too much analysis. Use your ear! You can't play guitar with your intellect. Music is sound, it's the sound and the effect of the sound that matters.

When you write a post here, or a letter to somebody, do you parse every sentence? Do you dissect your phrases or think in semantic terms? You just write it and communicate what you feel using the tools you have.

Same with music.

[VKat]

By the way, I'm glad I've made an attempt to explore the basic idea of 'up and arp - down a line' by taking it to the extremes of absurdity. It's easier to see now what not to do and that even such a free idea of Bop language has its limitations.

[VKat]

...
When you write a post here, or a letter to somebody, do you parse every sentence?...

I often do
Am I weird?
(I know I actually am).

[ragman1]

Yes, very weird

I suppose once you get into intellectual/analysis land it's hard to get out of it. Personally, I'm just very glad I never did that. I couldn't see the relationship between actual notes and sounds and a lot of words. If an an Eb sounds good, that's good enough. I don't care if it's the flattened 2nd of the Phrygian mode of blah-blah-blah, I just care if it works or not.

If you see what I mean :-)

the basic idea of 'up an arp - down a line'

That's not a bad formula... but beware of formulas. Formulas don't always work, they entrap you if you cling to them.

[VKat]

I know of course what you mean. However can you appreciate my initial idea of uniformity of the whole exercise?

Let me do the following: I won't abandon the initial idea, I'll try to modify the set based on the suggestions of Chris and RagMan and sill try to maintain the original structure as close as possible.
I'll post the modified version soon and let's see what you say.

[christianm77]

Cool

While on the surface I may appear more analytical than Rag I agree that the ear is the ultimate arbiter.

The toolkit for constructing bebop lines is more useful imo than merely parroting licks. You want to be able to build language from the ground up, and linking ascending arpeggios and descending scales is a surprisingly flexible way to do start this.

[VKat]

Chris - sounds good. I agree that we need to be able to express our creativity. It should be a live language to some extent but the only measure of success is of course what Duke siad 'If it sounds good then it's good'.

I "fixed" the original lines. The only problem is #5 that I didn't want to modify completely. I changed the sound of CM7 to an inversion of Dm trying to maintain that high D for consistency. Yes, it still sounds most weird of all.
In #1 I tried to expand the ending to make it less contrived. I don't know if I succeeded.
I changed all B-Ab's to Bb-Ab's.
I haven't introduced triplets yet but that should be an easy step anyway.

Please comment and I'll do further modifications where needed.

[christianm77]

These are much more ‘textbook’ - some nice ideas here. I like the B A Bb Ab figure you use a few times. Sounds hip to me.

Just two things jumped out

2nd last one - why E and not F F# G?

Last one -
I feel there’s a missed opportunity to go E D C B Bb Ab, keep the melodic direction going but changing the harmony.

I know you thinking about putting chord tones on the beat, but the rule (half step between G and F if you start on a chord tone on the beta and none if not) is actually more important than this principle imo.

I can see why you put an E flat there and it kind of works, but try without. It’s not one of the standard added notes for a G7 scale.

[christianm77]

Now have a go at taking these and instead of having the arp go up in 8ths have three notes is arp triplets (neighbour tone on the 2+ as before) - see what changes you have to make.

Also try shifting the start of the phrase to 1+ 3+ and 4+ while keeping the resolution point the same.

Also diatonically transpose each example down a third (so it resolves to B) making changes to the passing tone in the scale as required.

Try and do this on you instrument as well as on paper.

[VKat]

By the way, a quck thought: doesn't that #5 with it's Db-C-B beginning over G deliver the sound of Db7 substitute over V? To me it translates into 1-7-b7 of Db7 scale if you like. I didn't think of it that way actually, I only wanted to maintain the general formula.

Once again let me explain the whole idea once more. However pointless it might seem I try to achieve the following: take a simple scenario and make an attempt to build on it.
Chris correctly noted that in the Bop idiom ii isn't as important as V and V in itself isn't as important in its clear form as its altered version. However I still try to see what's possible to do whitin the original framework and get acceptable results.

[VKat]

Chris - let me consider your latest input within next couple hours.
The E-F# was actually a mistake. It had to be F-F#. Thanks!
I'll get back in couple hours...