b5 in dominant chords

[Boston Joe]

I would love to take one on one lessons with Jordan (I am in a way, pestering the poor man for info). I think I would Skype frustrating though, I really want to be able to play with the other person (that's as valuable as any verbal info). Maybe I'll try it.

Yeah, I've been guilty of pestering him myself. But things seem to be taking off for him, and he doesn't seem to be as available as he was, say, a year ago.

I think skype lessons are worth doing. For one thing, he's a fun guy to converse with in real time. For another, you can at least play for him and get feedback right away, instead of making a video and waiting for him to review it, by which time you're thinking about something else.

It's not ideal. You're right in that the lag makes it tough to play together. Plus you've got the whole time zone thing to deal with. I'm lucky in as much as I'm in the same time zone. I'm also hoping that on my next trip to NYC (whenever that might be) that he's around and has time to do an in-person lesson. (I keep saying I want to get down there - it's only 200 miles away - but never seem to muster up the motivation.)

[jordanklemons]

I'm starting to experiment with this and it's confusing me. I'm not finding it intuitive. It's like I'm unsure whether the b5 I'm about to play will sound good or horrible until I do it.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet Alez, but I wanted to add my 2 cents in based on the very first thing you said. ^^^

You quickly pivoted away from this initial point and moved into theory and questions about what to call things and whether the note was a #11 or a b5, etc.

But if it were me, I'd focus more on this first statement. You want to use that note (regardless of what we're calling it and what function it might play) but your ears don't relate to it yet. To me, that seems like it should just be the go-to point then. If you like the sound of it when other people play it but you can't hear it and make it work yourself, it might be worth just isolating that issue and developing your ears a bit. I actually had the exact same issue with the same note in college. I loved how it sounded when I heard others play it, but I just couldn't ever seem to make music sense of it.

So first thing I'd probably do is just play a basic G7 shell voicing (no 5th!)
3X34XX
then I'd sing that b5/#11 against it (cheating by playing it simultaneously as needed)
3(4)34(2)X
here we can see where that note is in two different octaves.

So I'd just do that for a while. Get comfortable producing that sound against the shell voicing. So if you can get to the point where you can do it without cheating and playing the parenthesis notes... try JUST playing the shell and then being able to sing the note against it.

Then try moving it around the circle of 5ths. Use the same shapes, but just move from G7 to C7 to F7 etc. Against each one, sing the b5 (cheating as necessary... and for double-checking your intonation)

By this time, your ear should be starting to open up deeper and connect with that note and getting to know it's personality. So then I'd play around with applying the concept of tension and resolution with it. Can you hear and use it as both?

Can you sing the C# note over the G7 shell voicing and then resolve it up chromatically without moving chords? I would think of that as a melodic tension note. It there to create tension to moves you up to the natural 5th.

If you can do that, you can maybe then resolve the G7 chord to a CMaj chord and either hold the D note you're singing or resolve it up or down stepwise or by leap to a note that works with the C chord.

So that use would be more of a melodic tension because you're using it to create movement WITHIN the G7 tonality. But we could also treat it as a more stable sound in G7 that resolves only when we move to the next chord.

So try playing the G7 shell voicing and singing that C#/Db note and then resolve it up or down only when you change to the C chord... something like this
3X34(2)X -> X322(3)X
3X34(2)X -> X322(1)X

These last couple examples could still be either a #11 or a b5 and could imply different scales that could also be used. But jumping right into scales when you can't yet hear the individual note can muddy the issue. There's to many other sounds in there that it makes it harder for the ear to learn to hear this one new sound you're grappling with. It definitely works, plenty of amazing players learned to hear all their notes with that approach. I just like getting very specific and scientific about it. I enjoy the process of isolating one thing out, putting it under the microscope, and poking at it to see what it will do.

For instance, the 7b5 can also work great resolving up a whole step to a major chord (G7 -> to A) or down a half step to a minor chord (G7 -> F#-). So after trying it alone in a static G7, you can try it with the V -> I cadence, then maybe the V -> i cadence. Then the bII -> i cadence. Then the bVII -> I cadence.

Then you could try it as a bVI7 chord resolving down a half step to the V to the i.
3X34(2)X
2X23(3)X
7X87(5)X

Just some thoughts. The question of whether it's a #11 or a b5 and what scales and other extensions they would imply is a good question to ask too. Maybe they could even be done in parallel. But I find it helpful to just get to know the sound. Can really speed up the development of our ear which will only make everything else easier and more fun.

[jordanklemons]

Hey, just noticed that I was brought up in here already. Go figure that the topics that catch my eye would be where I find my peoples

Thanks for the shoutout guys. Much appreciated. Always enjoy talking shop with you fellas!

edit:

As was mentioned, I DO really enjoy using triads to organize all of this stuff and develop vocabulary. But I didn't mention them specifically here. But I alluded to the idea when I talked about melodic tension vs resolution (as opposed to harmonic "tension notes"). I use triads to organize melodic resolution and stable points. The triads might be the basic 1-3-5 root structure, or they might be "upper structure"... but once I decide upon a triad I want to use, those 3 notes get tonicized in the melody, so they become the 3 most stable notes against any given chord. Then we add other notes around those 3 notes to create melodic tension... they act as passing notes to move between the 3 notes of the triad. So it's the same idea I was talking about... I was just zoning in on isolating that one note and trying to hear it as a standalone sound that could be used either as a stable note in the harmony, or as a note that wants to move. It can function as either... and the choice of melodic triad would just give it a specified role. But being able to sing it and hear it first is super helpful whether you wanted to check out triads or use scales, or arpeggios, or whatever other musical organizational concepts one might prefer.

[Boston Joe]

So, one thing I use as a mnemonic for the #4/#11 sound is the Jetson's theme. "Meet George Jetson" is 1, 3. #4. 5. So if you can hear that phrase, the "Jet" syllable is on the #4, and you can hear it against the other chord tones. Here it acts as a tension note, resolving to the 5, but it doesn't have to.

[joe2758]

yea or the simpsons; my music teacher said danny elfman used lydian on purpose because of the jetsons

[Boston Joe]

yea or the simpsons; my music teacher said danny elfman used lydian on purpose because of the jetsons

Definitely. There are a lot of similarities in the composition. I like the Jetsons because it's a straight up major arpeggio.

[Boston Joe]

How do I know my ensemble leader is a Berklee grad? Every time I play a #11 on a tonic chord, he goes "Yeah!"

[christianm77]

You think they’d got over it by now lol

[jordanklemons]

[Boston Joe]

You think they’d got over it by now lol

You'd think!

I'm kind of joking. He does do that, but I think he mostly just wants to encourage us to get outside of our usual stuff.

[christianm77]

You'd think!

I'm kind of joking. He does do that, but I think he mostly just wants to encourage us to get outside of our usual stuff.

Raise him a #5 and see what happens... It may not be decent.

[alez]

I've been missing this thread for a while, so busy times here lately.

I think you might get a lot out of looking into Jordan Klemon's take on Stephon Harris's teaching.

There's a lot of stuff about learning to hear the extensions using triads etc.

Jordan posts his stuff here, but the main action is on his melodic triads facebook page. Maybe give him a shout? It would be cool to have a non-guitarist check that stuff out, and I can imagine this approach working well on trumpet. There's some free materials.

Thanks for this. I've located his tuition / workshop space on FB and I'm impressed. I've also read Jordan's own description of his ideas on this thread. So interesting. I shall join in a while when I'm ready, as right now I'm kind of "in the middle of something", using some ideas of my own.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet Alez, but I wanted to add my 2 cents in based on the very first thing you said. ^^^

You quickly pivoted away from this initial point and moved into theory and questions about what to call things and whether the note was a #11 or a b5, etc.

But if it were me, I'd focus more on this first statement. You want to use that note (regardless of what we're calling it and what function it might play) but your ears don't relate to it yet. To me, that seems like it should just be the go-to point then. If you like the sound of it when other people play it but you can't hear it and make it work yourself, it might be worth just isolating that issue and developing your ears a bit. I actually had the exact same issue with the same note in college. I loved how it sounded when I heard others play it, but I just couldn't ever seem to make music sense of it.

Many thanks for this, Jordan. I really appreciate your help.

Point taken. It's mostly what I've been doing and it's starting to work for me. Interesting how I've had similar experiences in the past with other tones, like for example #11 over I in major, major 7th in minor chords, etc.

So first thing I'd probably do is just play a basic G7 shell voicing (no 5th!)
3X34XX
then I'd sing that b5/#11 against it (cheating by playing it simultaneously as needed)
3(4)34(2)X
here we can see where that note is in two different octaves.
[...]

I'm so sorry to say I may have wasted your time a little here. I'm a trumpet player, so I don't play shell voicings, etc. and, worse yet, I obviously can't sing while playing

The idea of singing notes (cheating like you said as required) in order to get familiar with the tone in question makes so much sense, so I shall try in the future as I have plans to make a start on piano.

Generally speaking, though, the different comments (except for the totally guitar-specific ones) are still very useful because all the ideas are still totally relevant. In fact, they get more and more relevant as I improve. Lately I do hear my chords as I play them regardless of the fact that I play my notes one by one, so I check out different things, reharmonise, etc... directly on trumpet, which makes things straightforward from a trial-error perspective.

Just some thoughts. The question of whether it's a #11 or a b5 and what scales and other extensions they would imply is a good question to ask too. Maybe they could even be done in parallel. But I find it helpful to just get to know the sound. Can really speed up the development of our ear which will only make everything else easier and more fun.

Point taken. It makes a lot of sense.

Thanks, all. Much appreciated.

[alez]

So, one thing I use as a mnemonic for the #4/#11 sound is the Jetson's theme. "Meet George Jetson" is 1, 3. #4. 5. So if you can hear that phrase, the "Jet" syllable is on the #4, and you can hear it against the other chord tones. Here it acts as a tension note, resolving to the 5, but it doesn't have to.

yea or the simpsons; my music teacher said danny elfman used lydian on purpose because of the jetsons

Absolutely yes! Thanks for this.

[christianm77]

Do you have any keyboard skills alez?

[jordanklemons]

Hey Alez. No worries at all... not a waste of my time. I just didn't realize you weren't a guitar player. There's so many of us on here, I just assumed.

But yeah, as you already mentioned and as Christian seemed like he might be about to bring up.... the idea I was talking about can be done at the piano too. Might even be better there. The shell voicing is made of the 1, 3, and 7. So for a C7 it would be C-E-Bb.

You can play that at the piano and hold down the sustain pedal, then sing the notes in question over top of it. Personally, I'd still recommend singing before moving it onto the trumpet if the issue is an ear issue vs a technical issue you have with the instrument. You can cheat by playing the b5/#11 on the piano. But ideally, you'll want to be able to play the shell voicing and then sing the note. And maybe move it stepwise over the chord and/or during a resolution.
good luck
j