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I might have made that comment, related to the 1965 Live in Paris recordings and comparing them to other live recordings made earlier, as well as the studio albums.
Originally Posted by ronjazz
One reason they sound rehearsed is that he goes from single-line, to octaves, to block chords in most of his solos. In addition the melodies he creates out of these techniques, especially when doing octaves, are often very similar between what I heard on these recordings. Now I know these melodies so well (e.g. I can hum them), that I found myself waiting to hear them when I listed to that Live in Paris recording (the last Wes recording I added to my collection so I heard this way after all the others), and Wes delivered.
Of course the Live in Paris recordings were somewhat a 'come back' type concert after he did the much more commercial stuff (E.g. Beatles, Windy etc...), recordings and he was in Paris. I.e. I assume he knew that these folks wanted to hear many of those 'classic' sounds \ riffs he had recorded years before.
Anyhow, to have heard Wes live, multiple times; wow, that must have been something!
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05-03-2018 04:55 PM
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Alright. You win. Clearly the OP should not bother to try to improvise. Originally Posted by sgcim
I'll tell you the truth, S: That thread makes me very sad. It makes me sad to see people come to The Jazz Guitar Forum and receive encouragement to perform polished Jazzy Noise entertainment nuggets. It makes me sad to see youngsters get scant support to actually listen to the people on the bandstand with them and explore what those people and that moment have to offer.
Improvisation is hard, and most of us almost never do it as well as we wish. But my point to the OP is that it can be done from Day One, and that the beauty and joy that come from turning imperfections into opportunities far outweigh the relief of successfully delivering a slick piece of entertainment.
I stand by that. Imperfection is all I've got to work with.
Peace out and play on.
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Actually, my advice to the OP is just the opposite. He should play the moment (like I always do) and let it happen. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I'm strongly opposed to the practices I listed above of Miles and Metheny, but people bought their records, and declared them as jazz gods.
The whole point of jazz is spontaneous creation, but everyone has ideas they fall back on, especially on fast tempo tunes, as Tal Farlow once admitted.
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I've read that Art Tatum played the same solo on the same tune two nights in a row.
I have heard that one of the Brecker Bros would write ideas out and practice them for a year before performing them.
I have heard some great players play for many hours (not at once) and you do hear repeated material.
The only negative about writing out a solo in advance is that it might not relate as well as theoretically possible to what is going on in the rest of the band at that moment.
My advice is to do whatever you have to do to sound good. And do that every time you perform. Who is reasonably going to complain about that?
I do think it might look better if you memorize it.
One more point. Wes started out playing Charlie Christian solos note for note. If that was a burden, he overcame it.
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I took the OP as being a jazz novice, however talented. So let's not get too carried away.
Learning the art of jazz improvisation - well enough to present to an audience - is a process, and a darned painstaking one at that. Writing out/working out your solos needn't be a forever thing and I don't think that anyone here claimed that it should be. Further, if you don't need to do it by all means don't.
Also, who are we playing for when we're in front of an audience? Them, or ourselves? If your improvised solos pale in comparison to your worked out ones you may want to make some choices.
I'll tell you of one guy who is a true improviser - John McLaughlin. The way that he just tears into tunes night after night is something to behold..
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It is a fact that there's a live recording of Art playing Jitterbug Waltz available on YouTube, and he plays exactly the same notes he played on the record--fiendishly difficult ones, of course. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
He might be an extreme example though. Some people think he might have had a form of autism--he played incessantly and practiced his runs and arpeggios constantly. (I seem to recall he rarely slept and literally played all waking hours, when he wasn't eating or drinking beer, both of which he indulged in prodigiously.) I come to this of his music as kind of like Chopin or Liszt pieces which have been honed to perfection, then replayed.
I think there's a wide range of what even the pros do. Joe Pass for instance used a lot of "Passisms"--little riffs and runs which are recognizable but not unique from song to song. Wes did the same thing--"Wessisms." I also find a lot of similar patterns in McLaughlin and Dimeola's playing--I mean, you play the same notes on the scale night after night after night, and pretty soon there ain't no more notes left to play...
That doesn't mean it's not improvisation. What I think these guys did though is to put together building blocks of riffs in their brain and in their muscle memory--kind of like in ROM--available at a microsecond's notice.
True improvisation--I mean out there, no preconceived roadmap or rote elements--is so scarce as to be an endangered species. Some of the solo work of Wayne Shorter, Sonny Rollins and Keith Jarrett would be good examples. Chick Corea has had some entire albums devoted to improvisations.
I actually think guitar is harder for real improvisation because most people are playing within a framework--either with a band playing chord changes behind you or if you're playing solo you're often playing chord-melody, which imposes a kind of order on your playing (like Joe Pass' Virtuoso albums). To be honest, just soloing without that framework to my ears sounds so often like senseless noodling. I'd rather hear Sonny Rollins play for 10 minutes unaccompanied than most guitarists for 3. That's just my perception. There are some exceptions of course.
Back to the OP--I think it depends on how your band situation is set up. If it's a fairly tight, super-arranged outfit, playing a well-thought out preplanned solo might be just the ticket. As others have said, at least have the framework for the solos.
If it's really an open outfit where everyone is encouraged to improvise like crazy for a chorus or 2, then go for it.
I listen to some of those great big band performances like Ellington at Newport, and think those solos are unbelievable, but they're probably 90% planned and prerehearsed and 10% spur of the moment. Not that the audience would notice or even care.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 05-04-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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Famous 'Stardust' CC solo is very beatiful and I enjoy I was a bit diappointed when I heard it repeated note for note on another record..
And also the same thing I had with some GB solo...
It's how we percieve things... for me as a listner jazz playing is a challenge a bit... trying out something new every time...
So feeling of imnprovization is part of my perception here... there are some features or qualities in performance that give that feeling.
But one thing I know for sure - exact repetition is what takes that feeling away completely.
I like when the player uses the same idea abut next time developes it in a different way - I heard Jim Hall did that in some records and Sonny Rollins too... many did
But when it is repeated completely - again for me as a listner - it ruins something.
i am not saying they it is bad or wring... it is just how the perception of this music works..
as I said - improvization is not the intention of the player (we never know where the line is between improvized and precvomposed)
Improvization is what the listner takes as improvized.
In calssical music there are lots of precomposed pieces that sound improvized. It is interesting why.. how it works with our perception that we feel that spirit.
And how it works in jazz..
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IMO, no it isn't. But it can be part of learning jazz.
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Unless it's improvised it isn't jazz?
So, the song Autumn Leaves (example) isn't jazz unless you improvise over it? How about if you improvise by playing one or two blues scales over all the changes rather than playing the changes? It's still improvisation over a jazz standard. Is it jazz?
How about vocalists in a jazz situation who don't get a scatting solo in every song. Is what they're doing jazz?
I'm just throwing these things out for conversation since personally I've never thought that I'm a jazz player (remedial soloing chops) but I play jazz songs. I can live with that because I love the material and it's always challenging for me. If I have to compose a solo it doesn't bother me. I learn more from every solo I create and for me, composing a solo is the only way I can apply new concepts to my playing.
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Manhattan Transfer singing Jon Hendricks lyrics set to classic recording transcription.
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Its good to write things out or work them out.
Do this enough and you will get better at doing it in real time.
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I remember that Wes was hired by Lionel Hampton to play Charlie Christian note for note. Originally Posted by Lobomov
I remember a recent thread, where it was commented hos well rehearsed Wes was. That his solos live sounded a lot like the recorded version despite being played years later
A lot of the old school players were pretty worked out. Obviously some big exceptions - Sonny Rollins, Django ....
For myself, I definitely have themes and lines on certain tunes I keep coming back to.
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Hang about... didn’t Miles FIRE George Coleman for practicing his solos? Originally Posted by sgcim
Classic Miles :-)
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Maybe why you are sad is that you have been disillusioned as to the true nature of much jazz performance. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
But by your standards many of the great figures of jazz were basically ‘slick entertainers’
I don’t think the idea that you would rock up and make something up in the moment has ever been mainstream in jazz.
But there has always been a small community of players for whom this is the most important thing. And it is important for me.
But that’s not the entirety of jazz. But the idea that it is - I think - is kind of a bit of a modern jazz edu type notion.
This goes along with the fact that jazz is now a purist art form while it used to overlap with popular entertainment.
(As an aside, it was a well known aspect of the swing era that a soloist might improvise something in the studio and then have to learn and perform that solo verbatim every night.)
I also think that it takes a certain mindset to truly enjoy improvising in public. Many professional musicians, even jazzers, are terrified by it.
They are many shades of grey between composition and pure improvisation
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If I ever play a truly great solo -- and can remember it, I'll play it again.
I find it difficult to solo on fast rhythm changes. I don't feel much emotion in the changes, if that makes sense, and the tempo is generally stressful, since I don't quite have the chops for strings of eighths at bop tempo.
After being embarrassed a number of times, I eventually figured out a couple of choruses which I can play. I don't always use them, but I do sometimes.
Is it jazz? Close enough for jazz.
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It ain't jazz but I find making my own solos ahead of time a much better use of my practice time rather than playing a constant stream of eigth notes adressing the changes. Or learning a lick by itself and forcing it on the changes. The thing I learned from this is a sense of continuation or "flow" trying to make sense of the whole thing.
Of course I imagine that would kinda fall apart if someone else takes the solo first then you, thats when you know you really got to improvise, to make some sort of connecting statement from where the last person left off then base it from there.
Just the other day I was improvising on rhythm changes a few times (never played rhythm changes before) without knowing the changes, to my surprise I didn't do horrible on it. It could have been much much worse I imagine. The point of this? Maybe ever since I start making my own soloes I have been better informed on how to approach the changes (at least on a intuitive level), or maybe I've just been lucky lol
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Wait - you worked on 26-2 before attempting Rhythm Changes? Originally Posted by jazznylon
What??????
How long have you been playing?
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7-8 years general playing Originally Posted by christianm77
3-4 years of jazz.. yeah my priorities are all over the place lol
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Well, y'know RC is quite a lot easier than 26-2 lol Originally Posted by jazznylon
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The whole point of improvising is that it's challenging, fun and exciting to do it. 'Nuff said...
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That is true but what is the whole point of performing? Originally Posted by sgcim
To me that is what this thread it about; should he play a 'canned' solo since that is something he knows he can do well and therefore would be more pleasing to the audience?
(though the 'it is jazz' question is folly and a distraction).
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No, he should improvise. If he chickens out now, he'll chicken out the next time, and the next... Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Yes .. just like when you're abroad .. if the locals don't understand what you're saying, just repeat it again in english only louder Originally Posted by sgcim
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Tension between professionalism and artistic risk taking.
I don’t want to come across as moralistic about it. If you want to do commercial work being concerned about sounding polished and good is a key aspect.
I like to think though that people sometimes like live music to be a little rough around the edges... it lets them know it’s genuine...
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A few drinks would help all our playing to sound more genuine then.... Originally Posted by christianm77
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