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Just asking this in interests of getting a bit of debate and informed comment going really. For myself, and it relates to how I'm working on my improv at the moment, I seem to find the V-I bit is the real biggie, in that I like to put altered dominant type sounds over the V and get that resolution to the home major for the I. The ii chord is kind of the same key/parent major scale as the I, so already covered in a way... (Ok, simplistic I know). Also I say this without wishing to get a big debate re the pros/cons of the "chord-scale theory" of whatever
- we all have our approaches that work for us for improv, so please let's not go there, for this thread at least. Hoping to talk about more general theoretical matters really. I do also seem to recall Joe Pass saying words to the effect he tended to regard the ii chord as just a part/extension to the V...
But then there are plenty of sources and educational materials that seem to emphasize the ii-V, and it's true that many standards have multiple ii-V's that don't resolve to a I. So - just interested in the thoughts of forum members on this one, cheers!
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10-08-2017 08:44 AM
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Try it as ii-I. Try it as V-I.
The one is a point of resolution, so it's important.
The ii V creates tension...so it's important.
But the ii-V can be simplified to just ii...or just V.
Try it a bunch of different ways.
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I like the melodicism of the ii-V. But there's no one size fits all, all of the time. Sometimes on fast tempos it makes sense to SOMETIMES drop the ii in favor of the V. But variety is the spice of life. Doing the same thing, having the same approach gets boring for the player and listener alike. Mix it up.
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I don't know if I'd put it like that. Probably the V is the most important chord and the ii gives some colour to it. The ii-V needn't necessarily resolve to a 1, of course, as you said.
Originally Posted by Meggy
As you say, Joe Pass said he just thought of a ii-V as a V. I seized on that too but found it limited my options. Perhaps, when he saw a V, he automatically thought in terms of extensions, I don't know.
That said, doubtless the ii-V is the most prevalent sequence in music. Just happens to be that way. Personally, these days, when I see a ii-V I think of all kinds of alternative sounds. I don't just think ii-V.
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When you say, all and any of you, ... I think of ii-V, or just V, or ... what do you think of exactly?
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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Thanks for the responses so far - all good stuff, and I'm grateful. Looking at my question again, I perhaps put things in a bit of a dumb kind of way, or perhaps it is a dumb thing to ask period - as Mr B points out, and of course - both bits are important, and both present opportunities that one would be foolish to ignore. But I'm liking the replies all the same, so keep 'em coming by all means.
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Good question Originally Posted by Vladan
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I’m seeing and hearing patterns related to ii-V harmonic movement. About 30 years ago I practiced some basic ii-V patterns. That helped get my own personal vocabulary together. In terms of “thinking,” that’s a loaded question. I’d suggest getting a book of ii-V patterns and practice them in every key until you get the concept. Then never do that again, as long as you get the concept. Then play a ton of tunes with ii-Vs.
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II-V is a cadence or cycle resolving in this case to one. You can make each chord or treat by dominant function it all depends on tempo, style, melody, what you drank before the set. The I chord is the destination and there are lots of streets that will get you there and need to try them all in the woodshed to educate your ear.
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Targeting/enclosing the 3rd/7th guide tone lead lines between all those chords is something you need to get your ears around at a basic level, if you haven't yet.
I've heard people talk about thinking about it as more of a 7sus thing than a m7, but it's that MOVEMENT that they're talking about either way.
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ii V I
I think ....I think at the moment
ii V is 'away' (ie anything not I)
I is ' home' (ie anything that feel like I)
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IMHO V deserves the most workouts. I is home, II&IV is loose, VI is pretty strictly exactly what it is - cant do just "anything" there, also - home of course
. V - place to build tension and I always felt I missed another sound.. just one more voicing for that.. before started taking it seriously and getting into this.
Well, just an opinion. Not too advanced here at all.
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When Robben Ford was asked about playing with Miles Davis if all those II-V's bothered him. Robben said "I just start playing the V chord it's going to get there in a second anyway".
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Boppers (AFAIK) tend to generalise the harmony a lot. So Joe Pass says basically the same thing as Barry Harris, for instance. Of course there's more than one way to come at this.
Barry students understand the V7 as a dominant scale - with other related scales, such as the tritone sub bII7 - and extract patterns, chords, triads and so on from the scale. The actual nature of the harmony here is less a matter of thinking in chords so we are thinking V7 dominant scale and playing all types of harmony over the top... The possibilities are pretty endless when you get into it even with simple scale choices. I feel I have barely scratched the surface.
Other players tend to collect chord subs... For instance bVIImaj7 on dominant chord. That type of thing.
I have a concept that reduces everything down to static or passing chords. Static chords are basically major and minor, possibly dom7's if they stick around (like in the bridge of Rhythm Changes.) Passing chords are literally anything else. This works well for things like bebop because progressions like:
Dm7 G7b9 Cmaj7
Fmaj7 F#o7 C/G
Fmaj7 Fm6 C
Dm7 D#o7 Em7
Can be thought as kind of the same thing because Dm and F are closely related as are Em7 and C. In this understanding there is no reason why a line that works on one progression wouldn't work on all the others.
So here we think static chord --> movement --> another static chord. And of course if we want we can drop the first chord and go straight to movement (bebop!). Or have no, or little movement (smooth jazz lol ;-))
II-V-I licks are no way to learn bebop IMO. You can fake it, but it isn't the real deal.
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Non resolving II-V's...I'm not sure how much this helps, but most of these non resolving ii-V's have an origin in simpler early harmony. Non resolving II-V harmony in standards is usually an artifact of chord substitution. II's are decoration, and ornament.
OK here are some examples that use to confuse me.
Round the houses
Am7 | D7 | Dm7 | G7 is just
D7 | % | G7 | % |
Groovin' High
Am7b5 | D7b9 | Ebmaj7
Come from Whispering
D7 | % | Eb
Sideslip ii-V's, for example, like in Darn that Dream:
Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 | D7 | G
was
G/B | Bbo7 | Am7 | D7 | G
'Stella' ii-V
Em7b5 | A7b9 | Cm7 F7 | Fm7 Bb7 |
Eo7 | % | F7 | Bb7 |
So how does that help us play them? I dunno. I just think of the dominant or play over the original changes if you like dim chords. But here's one that I do find useful. In G, say:
Am7 | D7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 | Em
Is actually a long form of an interrupted cadence:
D7 | % | D#o7 | % | Em
Or
F#m7b5 | % | B7b9 | % | Em
With sus chords basically if you like
The best way of appreciating this stuff is learn a few different versions of changes for the same tune and compare.
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I have 2 points on this matter.
1. The V - I whether altered or not will have 1 tonal centre and the ii - V - I really had 2. The ii chord pulls to the V and the V pulls to the I. It is not the same. Think about the Chord tones of the ii Chord they want to resolve to the V.
Secondly, most songs will contain ii - V - I progressions, therefore it is more beneficial to practice licks that can be used in context.
I hope that adds to this discussion
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A player's approach to this stuff is what gives you your personal style, IMO. This is where I listen closely to other players, because it defines them. It is also where you can hear if someone doesn't really have an authentic jazz style.
I get good mileage from the ii7 - bII7 - I7, or simplify to bII7 - I7....or not. I personally want to sound like the 21st century, not 1940s.
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Depends on the context. Originally Posted by Vladan
Slow or fast? One bar or two? Going to a 1 (or i) or between other chords? Or in a series of ii-V's? Within the tune or a turnaround? What kind of tune? Which tune?
Then you play what you think it needs, what you can hear. Sometimes it needs an altered sound, sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes you can afford to ignore it altogether and just play something that covers it. ii-V's are always going somewhere. Where they're going is more important than the fact of ii-V.
Like the word 'and' in a sentence... or something like that...
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I just think Dom7(sus4) - Tonic. Against the ii I don't care if I play the sus4 of the Dom or not, unless it's a slow ii - V in which case I might...
And as for what is more important, the V or the I, well most will tell you they spend more time on their V vocab than their I material, there's way more options, plus you get away with playing more (as in faster) notes to help build tension. I spend more time on V stuff, and I'm just as concerned about the resolution to I as I am with what to keep playing after the first beat of the I .
So for me, the V is about V times more important than the I ...
Last edited by princeplanet; 10-09-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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BTW. I created an exercise based on Jody Fisher's ii - Valt - I progressions. I could email anyone a PDF version (free of charge) to anyone that is interested.
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Actually I think more people have more trouble with ii-Vs in the middle of a tune and Vs as secondary dominants than they do when the V resolves to the 1.
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I have a chord tone approach in that I know what chord I'm playing over but I'm not aware of the scales, actually I fill in the cracks with a lot of chromatics so it's sometimes hard to associate a scale with what I tend to do. So I much prefer playing over both the ii and V (unless they're going by too fast in which case it's the V only).
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TBH I think with your non resolving II-Vs it just depends what players you like. Just have a listen to the players you enjoy and see what they do...
I like using the IIm sound a lot, and IVmaj7 (bVII sub.) Pretty Wes. But wes often seems to be thinking Gm7 on Cm7 F7, too.
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Doesn't anyone advocate just playing the chords anymore?
Learning shortcuts, e.g. playing on the V and not the ii, is limiting. Learning to play the guide tones/scales of each chord allows the freedom to tackle most anything. Later the lines can be dumbed down, bluesed up, or follow imaginary substitute chords.
First learn to play vertically (chord tones and scales) before employing horizontal simplifications. Then one's lines are developed by intent, not lack of options.
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Ha! I finally figured out your name! Originally Posted by emanresu
IMHO V deserves the most workouts. I is home, II&IV is loose, VI is pretty strictly exactly what it is - cant do just "anything" there, also - home of course. V - place to build tension and I always felt I missed another sound.. just one more voicing for that.. before started taking it seriously and getting into this.
Well, just an opinion. Not too advanced here at all.
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