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Hi!
I guess locrian #2 scale is usually used with m7b5 chords. I tried taste little this loc #2 sound in dorian world. So I made backing track that is based in Dm7 chord and used D loc #2 scale. It's 6. mode of F melodic minor scale.
It would be interesting to know what ideas you have in using this scale.
Kindest, Mikko
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10-06-2017 02:34 PM
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That was very nicely played :-)
But I don't see what the mystery is. Are you playing a scale/mode with Ab in it over Dm7 which has a natural A? Is that right?
If the chord is Dm7 (in F) then D E F G A Bb C D is right over it - aeolian/natural minor. If it's Dm7b5 then the 5th (A) drops to Ab. That's F melodic minor.
However, Dm7b5 is the ii chord of C harmonic minor which has a natural B. So by playing D E F G Ab Bb C D over it you've dropped the harmonic sound. I suppose for Dm7b5-G7b9 you could play F mel and C harm. Or F mel and G alt. Or F mel and F dim.
It all depends how it sounds and if it sounds okay in context. And if you've got time to fit it all in!
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If I had to write out the chord name for this scale, I guess it would be Dm11b5b13.
It is the same notes as Fmelmin. Since there is no avoid note in melodic minor harmony, all the chords generated by the scale, as Mark Levine points out, are the same chord.
That is Fm6, Fminmaj; Gsusb9, Abmaj7#5; Bby#11, and so forth (per Levine -- there are other ways to view it).
D loc#2 is commonly used against Dm7b5. That's also the 7 chord in Ebmaj. Or, the 6 in Fmelmin.
The difference is whether you play and Eb or an E natural. Both have been used by great players. I prefer the E natural in most situations.
But, the same notes will work against all those other chords.
It seems to me that you can choose how you want to think about it. I drilled thinking that I'd play mel minor a b3 up from the root of a m7b5. That gets you to the right notes. And, then, I also had to think about playing the mel minor with the same root for the minmaj, the melodic minor a step below to get susb9 and so forth.
OR, you can learn the names of the modes of the mel min and associate them with specific chord types.
Either way, you end up having to learn the sound, get in under your fingers and forget the theory while you're playing.
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Thank you Ragman1!
Originally Posted by ragman1
Yu are right, there is no mystery in it. This was try out to me. The backing track is basically staying in one chord Dm7 and playing fills from D dorian scale. Normally I would play D dorian here and mix blues scale and chromatic notes in it. Locrian #2 over m7b5 chord feels natural but when I played the same scale over Dm7 chord that isn't solving anywhere I had to think phrases and sounds again. First they didn't fit same way that normally but when getting used to that sound it felt more natural. I wanted here to practice new sound for me for situations like "So What" and other modal songs.
Cheers!
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I think you are right. In my case I have come to conclusion that my brains cannot think so much the theory when playing things like these. The most important thing to me is to learn the sound and feel of the scale and etc. That was something I tried in this video. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Cheers!
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Yes, I get the idea. I use F mel as a sub for G7, usually going to the 1 chord. So for Dm7 - G7 - CM7 I'd play Dm7 - F mel - CM7. It gives a nice b9 sound. Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula
I think over a modal tune like 'So What', where there are lots of bars of Dm, slipping in the F mel would work but you'd have to resolve it. But it's not the only sub, of course. Miles Davis actually played it very diatonic. He occasionally used a C# (D harmonic minor) and some blue notes but that was about it. One thing about that solo was that he started to play the Ebm before he got there, and Dm over the Ebm before he went back to it, and that gave a little altered sound.
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There is a continuum of brighter and darker intervallic sounds in a minor context.
Let's say that the root at b3 are the only assumptions.
bright on the left // darker on the right
D // D
E // Eb
F // F
G# // G
A // Ab
B // Bb
C# // C
The differential between dorian and melodic minor VI adds two more darker colors.
D E F G A B C // D E F G Ab Bb C
Modes offer various combinations of brighter and darker interval combinations to address
various harmonic contexts. For me, I try to be aware of what notes preceded, what's coming
next and whether I want to emphasize the commonality or differential. On a stationary vamp,
integrating notes of varying degrees of bright and dark is one way to enlarge the pool of note
possibilities. Implied passing chords are another big area to consider.
Nice playing.Last edited by bako; 10-07-2017 at 09:55 AM.
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Thank you! You are so right. I think that there is also aspect of different influences. Different jazz styles uses different ways in being related to what has just played and what will be played. As you remembered me, playing solos is amazingly large subject. Thank you! Originally Posted by bako
Kindest, Mikko
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Mikko, you sound great man! Do yoiu have any other recordings/videos you could post? I love that acoustic sound approach!
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Mikko -
You might be interested in this. It's no great showcase thing, just noodling in D dorian with a bit of blues, the C#, and using F melodic minor... you can spot it :-)
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some cool ideas here! I am at the point of also trying to work some subs into my playing including modal situations as well, thanks for sharing!
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Hi Vladmartino! Originally Posted by vladmartino
Thank you! I'm really happy to hear that you liked my playing.
You can find my videos on my channel:
Mikko Karhula
- YouTube
and some videos with tabs, analysis and backing tracks from:
http://mikkokarhula.wixsite.com/mikkokarhula
Kindest, Mikko
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Nice ideas! I like your sound. The phrase starting from 1:19 is genius. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Thanks! Post it here. It would be interesting to hear your approach. Originally Posted by vladmartino
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Thanks! Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
I feel that sometimes too. It's interesting when one plays familiar scale for he/she in unfamiliar context. Like here, I'm used to play melodic minor scale but in other situations like as a altered scale and for tonic Immaj7 etc. It forces to rethink phrases again.
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Locrian Natural #2 tastes like Rhubarb. Fine Yorkshire Rhubarb.
And that is a Jazz FACT.
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? :-) maybe I'm missing something in translation between English and murrican... Originally Posted by christianm77
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IMO it tastes like mushrooms and smoked fish with porter. Rhubarb is for grandmas. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Locrian #2 is for grandmas
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Had to get lucky sometime :-) Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula
The phrase starting from 1:19 is genius.
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Yes really good playing all the way. The other way to simplify the theory behind it, it's all kind of one big G7 (alt), that is V of C from which Dm7 is Dorian. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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Thanks Vladan! Originally Posted by Vladan
Thank you for that perspective. I haven't thought this solo theory in that way you and the other guys have shown here. I just wanted to give a new tonal idea to me that is completely chained to I chord, here Dm7. It was interesting how my personal way of playing works with this unfamiliar scale. Those same maybe ethnic colors came still.
It would be nice to hear your approach with this scale. Sound files etc.
Kindest, Mikko
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It's good when author/ player is present to give first hand info, but that's rarely the case. If we did not "know" you, if you were not arround to tell us, we'd have to find the way to think about it.
I can not promise any recordings, but will keep it somewhere in the bak of my mind as a possibility.
BTW, just like you said, I'd normally play some kind of min/ blues/ dorian combo with chromatics, as I always do play over everything ...
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