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These are 2 of my favourite sounds and I feel like they are almost interchangeable, in either a major or minor key context. I suppose the V13b9 is mostly associated with the HW dim scale while the alt scale gets used for or Vb9b13, but I also like to use smaller pitch collections, based on the chord tones.
So my question to you guys is: Do you use both? Where and Why? Do you think they are interchangeable wherever a tune can use a Vb9, regardless of it''s resolution (maj or min)?Last edited by princeplanet; 05-21-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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05-21-2017 07:58 AM
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Is that harmonic major as well?
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Wasn't really considering Harm Maj, why do you ask?
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Just different potential origins. Sorry. Have only messed around with harmonic major occasionally out of curiosity. I'm still pretty basic. Mostly major and MM.
Ligon talks about these things mostly in terms of just "variety" - of "not always playing the same thing" over the same chords. He likes to describe different sounds of different scales/modes in terms of darker/brighter I think. So, V13b9 is "brighter" than altered/harm minor, but "darker" than mixolydian.
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Yes, but do you have enough experience with both to have any preferences for where you might use either? For instance, some may feel V13b9 sounds a bit weird resolving to Minor or they may just prefer the alt scale to the diminished scale. I find it all works for me, and I'm hoping to form some preferences eventually so that I can narrow things down and specialise in things I really like. But so far I just can't, which is a drag in some ways, because I have to practice it all! And because I like to develop several devices in all positions for any pitch collection, it means a lot more work just to keep the chops up
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Yes, but I'm interested in your answer! Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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Yes, but if you see a G7 in a progression where you think it can take a b9, and you wanted to add either a nat 13th or a b13th, what might influence your choice? Let me clarify further- If I were to hypothetically limit you to just 2 choices of a 5 note scale, either : b, d, e, f, Ab, or : b, d, Eb, f, Ab .... then would you qualify either use depending on context? Or would you consider either fair game as an extension where the b9 is appropriate? Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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That's tasty! OK, I think I should have tried to make my question clearer in that it's in regard to improvising as opposed to voice leading (whilst acknowledging that the latter influences the former
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But you wouldn't rule out either one in either a minor or major context?
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I like both as well, but I don't hear them as interchangeable.
The 13b9 is such a nice and strong chord; its functional pressure to resolve is so strong that I reserve using it to certain situations.
- its obvious role as an introductory chord
- as the shift chord going into a bridge
- as a "double down" chord, where an 11th chord changes into 13b9 to make the resolution super-determinant
The sound of the 13b9 is very convergent.
The b9b13 is a different sound to me because of the b13th, the sound is more divergent than resolving. I use this chord with others that have similar divergence and weak resolution in Bassa tunes... 13sus4, maj7sus2, maj7sus2b5...
edit - I've mentioned convergence/divergence so I should explain what that means to me.
As one who plays exclusively by ear, I hear the chord tones, extensions, and alterations as if they each have little "pointers" or vectors in some kind of harmonic space, these pointers applying what I hear as functional pressure toward subsequent possible chords.
What I describe as the more "convergent" chords are those with greater functional pressure due to greater alignment of the pointers toward fewer possible target subsequent chord changes - they press more firmly toward fewer possibilities. What I call the "divergent" chords are the ones that have less alignment of their pointers and so offer more directions of subsequent functional movement - where many wonderful and "unexpected" movements happen connecting previous and subsequent chords.
To me, the difference between the 13 and the b13 is one of the strongest indicators of where a chord lies within the convergent-divergent spectrum.Last edited by pauln; 05-21-2017 at 01:27 PM. Reason: some clarification...
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Fuzzbee didn't derail, I wasn't clear, that's all (not for the first time!).
Pauln, very interesting thoughts re convergence and divergence, cheers. Only 193 posts since 2011? You should post more.....
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I wouldn't call it derailed, chords and scales are one thing a sound and its pitch collection. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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It gets stretchy on some fingerings, but there's a lot to be said for 2 notes per string with any kind of 5 note scale. Rhythmic sequencing/patterns become more predictable for the right hand. Easier to embellish too. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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In a 13b9 chord the 13 is the major third of the I and in a b13b9 chord the b13 is the minor third of the I.
Therefore: a V13b9 resolving to major is less dissonant than than a Vb13b9
and
a V13b9 resolving to a minor I is more dissonant than a Vb13b9 (which would be the chord that is diatonic to a minor key over the V chord).
So...what we have is some modal mixture.
it's a matter of artistic preference whether you want your line or chord to be more or less dissonant in it's resolution. It could be applied over any V chord or implied over any I chord. As long as there's not a piano banging out a specific harmony that overpowers you.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
For me, this is a fine point E vs Eb for which I wouldn't want to use theory.
I'd go entirely by the melody in my head.
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I was going to say can anyone guess what I'm about to say and then realise fuzzthebee had stepped in before me lol!
I just wanted to add that a lot of guys influenced by CST (I.e. everyone including yours truly) seem to regard the V13b9 sound as sort of exotic but it's been with us for a long time in various guises.
For instance take a standard like All of Me where the last few bars are a ii V I and the melody is the 3rd of the key over the top.
Now if you the 9th of the V chord to give richer voice leading you are left with a V13b9 sound.
It's all very standard sounding to me. Just a melody with some voice movement to spruce up otherwise very diatonic harmony.
Similarly you can find many examples of dim7(maj7) sounds in standards rep going back to the 20s and 30s.
Concerns about what scales 'fit' these chords are essentially post CST and modern (post Berklee) as far as I can tell, and influenced by the use of lead sheets that reference the melody as an extension of the harmony. Bop lines do not have to reference these extensions.
So soloing over them really depends on how interested you are in preserving the melodies as some sort of upper extension sound over the basic chords. So for example including the whole 13b9 sound when playing over that specific V chord and abstracting some scale from it.
I.e the difference between
- The blowing chord is a G7 in a major key, so we'll do something based on G7...
- We'll make it a minor key V7 chord - G7b9 - and do something on that - common move with Bird on any given V7 chord at any time...
- Or the chord is G7b9 with an E in the melody which the chart calls G13b9 to stop the accompanist from playing an Eb in their voicing, and then
- The CST guy looks at it and thinks 'OK G13b9 - G half-whole' or (in a ii-V-I context) 'G harmonic major.'
(- And yes, yes, the Barry Harris 8 note scale thing which importantly is not primarily concerned with improvisation on chords, although you can use it to generate cool arpeggio lines.So i'll leave it out for now.)
If you don't have that E in the melody incidentally, which is a product of major/minor key modal mixture, where does it come from? You can introduce that E in a minor key of course, and it sounds really cool - but how often do you see it written into a chord chart in the context of a V7 going to a minor I?
Therefore the 13b9 should be regarded as a product of inner voice leading in the arrangement and optional for blowing.
Used as a non functional chord, sure. In this case the CST is probably the best way to go, harmonic major or half-whole.
This is not something that seems to interest improvisers historically as I think most boppers would be happy to play their usual V stuff on the V chord which would likely be a shell voicing anyway.
Otoh scale use in the bop era was not concerned with preserving every chordal note in the scale. So IV melodic minor was a common choice on V7 as others have discussed. This would give you the 13 but also a b3 against the V chord. No one appeared to give a shit about this.Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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TL;DR I think they are interchangeable for blowing in functional harmony.
If you are playing some modern chart, you might need to be more
Also altered is not, for me the same as b9. There are as I see it four common basic colours for a V7 chord, based on diminished symmetry. That's Barry stuff anyway. Also see Pat Martino.
(and there's also the V7+5 sound which is rarer these days but pretty common in early times)Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2017 at 11:19 AM.
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What would you say are the 4 types? Originally Posted by christianm77
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7 - major key - V7
7b9 - parallel minor key - relates to bVII7
7alt - alt/tritone - relates to bII7
And the slightly weird one
7(#1) - relative minor key - relates to III7
So in case 2 we can raise the bVII to a VII to accommodate the leading note (the 3rd of the V7)
In case 3 it's the same deal for the relative minor. Now that gives us either G7 or G#o7 but the most common usage of this would be from using an Am ii v I thing on a c ii v I for instance.
Anyway you can see how the half whole scale kind of acts as an over arching link to these four.
Furthermore, we can build a mixolydian or Lydian dominant on any of these, but option 4 is often just expressed using VI minor
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TL;DR means 'too long, didn't read' - in this case being used in effect to say 'I acknowledge the above is a wall of text/info overload, so here's the gist'
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Oh yeah, I always find it amusing to see it written like that. You also like to go 1 - #1 just before resolution , right? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Haha yes Originally Posted by princeplanet
But then, minor key dominant is really VII7(#1)
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
I basically always reserve the 13b9 for a major resolution and the b13b9 generally for a minor resolution. Not 100% of the time. The 13b9 tonality always makes me feel like two lovers ballroom dancing and the man pushes the woman over, with his arm catching her, and dipping her and pausing (especially when the chord is used in rubato). The resolution to the major chord always gives a strong sense of the dance continuing fluidly. I just don't FEEL that same sense of the dance continuing when I resolve to a minor chord.
The b13b9, in my ear, can surely resolve to either major or minor very nicely, but I do think it's got just a bit more zap in the minor key. The b13 of the V chord resolves nicely to both the 9 and the M3 of the I chord.
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This is exactly the kind of reply I was expecting, and of course it would be hard for any of us to disagree (I especially like your cute analogy Originally Posted by jordanklemons
). I suppose I was wondering if there were fans of the 13b9 resolving to a Minor tonic, If not I may start feeling as though it's a kinky fetish!
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Hahaha, nothing wrong with a little kink (after all, the abbreviation for your username is PP!! Originally Posted by princeplanet
This is exactly the kind of reply I was expecting, and of course it would be hard for any of us to disagree (I especially like your cute analogy). I suppose I was wondering if there were fans of the 13b9 resolving to a Minor tonic, If not I may start feeling as though it's a kinky fetish!
hahahaha)
But yeah, I guess that's just not what floats my boat. I'm open to experimentation and with give it another try to see. But definitely not my go to.
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