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Similar chord changes to last week's project but different location on the fingerboard. If you were able to get off book on last week's project, this will have a nice sense of familiarity to it.
And for curiosity and reference, this is Howard Roberts' suggestion of some things that might have worked for this past week. See if you can identify what he's doing and isolate individual ideas, try them out, change them and put them into other places in the changes. Look at things like range, where a phrase begins...ends, contour, things like that and see if you can think of any one of those ideas while you play.
Have fun!
David
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05-21-2017 07:12 AM
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I'm a day behind schedule this week. First night with Angel Eyes in A. Kicking my butt. Probably need to slow it down a bit. I played various versions of Angel Eyes on loop for awhile today. I'm hearing the changes pretty good now, at least in the recorded versions, but still having trouble when I play it.
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I'm familiar with this tune having long been a big fan of the Jim Hall version, but those changes in the B section still manage to baffle me. I think I need to take David's suggestion and loop some smaller sections.
Also, like gasser, I'm finding the key change much more difficult this time around. With the previous tunes it was a welcome change that did not take long to acclimate to, and sometimes actually felt easier than the original key. But not this time!
Despite the challenges, I can already see some results in a few short weeks when I freely improvise over other material. My fretboard awareness has improved substantially, and my options really feel like they've opened up.
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Just a few random thoughts that have been floating around my head the past couple of days.
- Playing at tempo with a recorded version of the tune helps me hear changes better.
- But that doesn't translate into playing the changes decently (go figure, i know)
- Passing chords seem to take on what feels to be a false importance at slow tempos. For instance, the F#-7 leading into the B section. Best I can do with this is try to find the nearest chord tone and try to accurately spell out the chord.
- Chord tones of minor chords can be tricky to approach with enclosures and other embellishments if you're not cognizant of what key center you're actually playing in and what the diatonic notes are.
- The Bm-7 that Howard approaches the E7alt frequently sounds off to me.
- Given the amount of time over every chord, there's a temptation for me at slow tempo to try to squeeze in as many different notes or spell out every chord as thoroughly as I can. Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. It makes me appreciate the simplicity of well written melodies, and how they use space and taste. For example, over an E7-9 in the turnarounds, for example, you might just play something like a single G, or G-Ab-A, but I feel like I have to hit the b9, the b7, other altered tones, etc.
- I dialed back the tempo a bit. The fingering model that I've been practicing for a while is leaving my high and dry in some situations, so I need more time to "think".
- In trying to simplify, I've messed around a bit with keeping it really simple: either tonic or dominant. I don't think it's working very well.Last edited by wzpgsr; 05-25-2017 at 05:30 PM.
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Howard is the epitomy of a "guitarist" .. any key any position any time
Before I tackle any tune..if it has a vocal version..I learn the lyric and just the basic chords to it..then sing it and comp for myself..then just sing the tune no guitar..then just play the chords no singing..do that several time until I have it down..then study the lesson
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Y'know, on this topic, I feel it's useful to see the Howard Roberts program here on different levels:
- Just playing notes in time. At some point, just developing the ability to play in good time regardless of note choice is a really good thing. It's also where you can learn to respect time and feel for every note through confidence with both hands coordinating. You're practicing right and left hand coordination.
- Next level is knowing good note choice. Scale and chord knowledge. Feel the flow but draw in interesting line with notes that are appropriate. You're practicing ear and knowledge coordination.
- Next level might be controlling the contour. Being aware of your options and being bold enough to exercise them. This is a linear matter; creating interesting and purposeful lines (... eventually phrases) with the options you're given (scale, chord tone, motif, alluding to the original melody of a piece...). You're practicing hand and ear coordination.
This is my order of organization at least. First time I toyed with the Roberts course was a long time ago. It was on the notes level back then. Each time I revisit it, I learn more and make breakthroughs in different ways.
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Hope this gives you some ideas. Great sticking with it!! These questions come up because you're actually making progress. Make a journal of problems and those become goals. Share them with us!
And everyone else, let's contribute our thoughts to solutions. Thoughtful introspection leads to breakthrough.
Good luck and have fun-
David
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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Thanks for your thoughts. This is a great practice routine, very grateful you started this study group.
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Week 7! No new changes this week, but new ideas from what we've done up 'til now.
This is an important week: Learning from what we've done so far.
Have fun!
David
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Revisiting the first tune is great. So much easier to hear now.
I think there must be a typo with the C+11 chord in the A section. Going by the key signature, the B should be flat, but Roberts writes the chord as C+11, which I take to mean a major #11. Roberts' suggested chord voicing look like it'd be impossible to play as written, so my gut is telling me to play this as a C7+11.
What is everyone else playing for that chord?
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I suspect he's going for a lydian dominant type of sound there? I'm not actually using his voicings, so for that part I'm just hitting C7+extensions.
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Well, I can't say these tunes are that much easier now, but I feel like I'm clawing away at some progress. I'm currently hovering at 66ish bpm, roughly half of the target tempo!
This would be far easier if I were to just take a key centre approach, but I am really trying to make sure to address every chord and not float over anything. I think that is what is keeping the tempo back for me, but I think keeping the discipline to do this will be worth it.
Another thing (that David has mentioned a few times) is that I am definitely not off the page on any of these tunes yet, and that is probably an issue. I have large sections down, but I can't make it through these tunes without looking at the chart. I'm going to make more of an effort on the upcoming tunes.
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Originally Posted by Jehu
Jay, if it's not your ears that guide you through the harmonic landscape of a tune, then what is it? Everything else: rote finger movement, lick vocabulary, theoretical knowledge, scale notes, chord tones... will slow your creative process down if they don't come from the ear.
So let me suggest something really taboo here. Take one iteration of the 10 minute loop, maybe even outside of the 50 minute program, and find your speed, and then play only bass line for the changes. Get a feel for what's going on and what the piece sounds like and play a bass line. You can record this, then solo over it.
Making a bass line is a great exercise.
A good friend and teacher was playing with a horn player and the horn player played well inside of his note choice but Mick (my friend) told him "why don't you play a bass line while I'm soloing?" Well, it proved to be a real challenge and a game changer. His playing got stronger in the soloing from the awareness.
Try that. Even as a warm up exercise, to play lines like a bass player on quarter notes. We'll call it supplemental ear training.
When you establish this balance of "hearing", "knowing" and "playing", you'll find you can play notes as ideas, ideas as thoughts, thoughts as ways to respect the contours of the piece.
Try breaking the piece into tonal areas, know the boundries (I have yet to lay out some "maps" I'd said I could... 'gotta get to that) and create a little universe in there. Get the notes down but not as just scale exercises, think things like:
What note am I reaching for?
Where am I starting, besides always the root?
How can I get different arpeggio pieces to work by combining them with scale notes?
Can I consciously change direction when I want?
That idea I just had... can I use it as the basis for the next idea?
Most of all, What does it SOUND like?
Now all these things are NOT beyond you right now. They become possible, easier and even fun once they are guided by your ear.
Give this a try and see if this helps this week.
This is a great time to take inventory of the big picture and fall back and regroup before new changes next week.
Good luck!
David
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Just some more random thoughts:
- My lack of fretboard knowledge is really revealing itself. At the same time, I feel like I am learning tons about the fretboard. Go figure.
- I re-read what David just wrote about using the ear. I realized that when I have "floated" over the changes using the key center approach, my ear starts to work harder than it does with my typically more vertical chord tone approach. Although I have by no means come close to mastering this, I'm finding that half-step resolutions, that lend some interesting altered color over the ii-Vs, sort of find their way *by ear* into my playing when I use the current key center's major (or minor) scale as my "home base". I can see how liberating this would be, as it might allow me to stop thinking so damn much about the chord tones of the moment, their appropriate neighboring tones based on the chord's mode in the current key, etc. Intellectually, at least, it now strikes me as a much more natural way of improvising melodies and more readily and naturally lends itself to melodies that stretch over several bars.
- Outside the program, I need to spend a lot of time boning up on arpeggios as a component of scales and a function of the key center as opposed to treating them like disconnected fingerings. They way I generally practiced arpeggios in the past--isolated from their key center and therefore from the very idea of musicality--seems extremely detrimental. As an aside, Richie Zellon's bebop blues course has started me down the road to correcting this, but it's a slow process as he introduces new fingerings when he introduces new substitutions to a basic I7-IV7-V7 progression.
- Outside of the 50 minute regimen, I did something I've never really done before: allowed the chord shapes to structure my improvisation. This also was rather liberating, if new and rather clunky for the time being. Roberts' voicings tend to cover the whole neck over the length of a piece. So by strumming one of his voicings and just noodling around a bit out of time in that position, trying to express the sound of each chord, I started to free myself from what tends to be single position, safe-zone playing.
- In another thread about practicing slowly, docbop, who I believe studied with Roberts, talked about how important it is to Roberts approach that you not make any mistakes and that you play slowly enough to do this. It's easy to gloss over this guideline. I have been feeling some pressure to speed things up, but I need to fully grasp this idea that if I play crappy a higher tempo, I'm not doing myself any favors. For the rest of this initial 20 week program, I'm going to stick to my actual tempo. Outside of the regimen, I will explore real-world tempos, but in the 50 minutes I am going to stay by-the-book.
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David,
The bass line thing is an excellent suggestion. I gave it a go this morning and I can definitely see that it will be a beneficial (and fun!) thing to add to the mix. I get your point about letting the ear be the primary guide, and how over-reliance on the lead sheet will inevitably be a hindrance to that goal.
Your earlier post (#139) was solid gold, and though I didn't respond to it I did spend time pondering the points you made. Regarding your 3 levels, I think at this point I am firmly somewhere in number 2: I'm mostly hitting "good" (safe?) notes and am working on carving out interesting contours, trying to unite my ear with what I see on the fretboard. I'm certainly not to the point of laying down purposeful lines or phrases with intention, but I am trying to focus on developing the ear-hand coordination that is necessary to do so.
To give you a sense of where I am, here is (mercifully) one lap through the Week 4 changes. This is fairly representative of what the other 28 minutes sounds like, questionable note choices and all:
And for the hell of it, here is an idea of what my comping practice is sounding like. As I mentioned I am not using HR's voicings, but rather spending the first 10 minutes comping through the changes using small, improvised voicings:
This programme has been a humbling experience, and I appreciate your guidance. You are one generous dude!
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Here's a tiny aside I thought I'd throw in on a lighter note. For those who've been following this program, I'd say you're a tiny minority of those who consider themselves jazz guitar students. At least in terms of finding regular commitment to the cause.
I've had the great fortune to have kept the company of some of the most inspirational and accomplished players in the jazz world today, and one thing I found out: They're, for the most part, ordinary people who came to love playing and did it with love. They found that point where each note became rewarding and it soon became the most rewarding thing in their lives. But it wasn't magical or even fun to listen to at the start, it was because they loved it and never stopped, never gave up.
I'm convinced this is the single most important thing to owning and mastering improvisational guitar.
Just doing it. For those with the program here, you've got it. You're doing what most others don't. That's pretty amazing.
David
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This week we begin afresh with a new challenge: The triplet. This establishes a sense of swing into the rhythmic feel plus it can really impart a sense of direction and identity to each beat.
Be patient as you assimilate this new element; we'll be with it for a few weeks.
The tune is a great exercise in itself, but it's also a tricky form because it changes key several times. It's based on the changes of All The Things You Are, so you can get a feeling for the rhythmic landscape by listening to examples. I've always loved the way Lee Konitz played this tune. Yes, get it in your ear and try to find the sound to guide your fingers.
I will draw out a "roadmap" of the tune in a separate post if that's helpful.
David
So here's the next Project:
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I'd be lying if I said I'm not glad tomorrow is a day off. I'm not NOT glad, but I'm not glad, too...
I've been spending a lot of time outside of the 50 minutes listening to recorded versions of the tunes, trying different things over smaller sections, etc., but at this point most of it goes out the window when it comes time to dig in. In the search for breaking the occasional monotony, I've started pulling licks out that I never gave proper consideration to after transcribing them. One is the Cry Me a River lick and the other is the major ii-V-I bit from the head of Hot House. Outside of the 50 minute regimen I've been deconstructing licks and trying them in different situations. A couple of times this evening I managed to insert them at appropriate times, vanilla, or changing them up a bit, playing the cry me a river lick a half step above altered dominants, etc. At times it sounded pretty cool.
I've been reading Hal Galper's thoughts in his book Forward Motion, and if I can scrape together the time I'd like to write out some guide tone melodies around which to base at least some of my improvisation in this program. Before I hit record tonight, I did try playing eighth notes for the thirds of each chord in Angel Eyes. Definitely some benefit there for me, but not at my current tempo. Eight eighth notes on the same note at 46 BPM is enough to make my eyes glaze over.
Enjoy the day off tomorrow. I suspect my metronome will be going backwards for a bit as we enter triplet territory. Only thirteen weeks to go!
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The first night of triplets....challenging in ways I did not fully expect. Had to drop the tempo down to 37 in order to do what I wanted to do, which was play the thirds of each chord as triplets. Subdividing at such a slow tempo was killing me, as was the real-time hunt for the right notes. I've been coming to a full realization of just how incomplete my fretboard knowledge is.
Outside the official practice time, I'm working out the arpeggios for the required chords relative to whatever major scale position I'm using. I was going to try to stick to just root position on the fifth and sixth strings but I don't like jumping around so much. Funny how I'm discovering that what HR recommends at the beginning really does seem to be a great way of approaching this.
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Yes, I've backed down to 48, but even at that tempo 10 minutes of solid triplets are quite a workout! Still, the change to triplets is a welcome change of pace aurally.
I've started really making an effort to nail down the changes and get off the page, both by just comping through at a more normal tempo and by taking David's suggestion of a quarter-note bass line. It helps that I'm already somewhat familiar with ATTYA, but all of the tritone subs that HR adds in throw a bit of a wrench in that!
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Here's a little suggestion when looking at the piece as a whole. Your first section is made up of a little journey of about starts you off in Ab and right at the end of the 6th bar it takes you into C for two bars.
Then if you move the whole thing up a fifth (or down a fourth) you can do the whole thing again. Sort of like when we were doing a piece in one key one week, then we'd move it up a 4th into a new key and do it again. Only you have a two line little story that moves up and the story gets told again.
Then we get to section B. That's in G for a nice space, a line; just play and enjoy that.
And then it moves to E for the last line of the B section.
C section is a return to Ab and a whole lot of ways to move around within that landscape.
That's the big map. See if thinking in sections helps you to hear.
As far as triplets, if you practice three note words, like do re me, or chord tones, or going from one note to another with a passing note... you know, having something in mind, then you can hit a triplet and treat it like one thing.
We can discuss this further as the week goes on.
For anyone else trying to hear the triplets, they are the foundation for a swing feel. If you tie the first two notes, the third note is a small breath that leads you to another "heavier" note. That's swing phrasing.
Nice going!
David
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There are quite a few versions of Lee Konitz playing this tune... what is the one you speak of TruthHertz?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Hi everyone. I just wanted to check in. I started a few weeks behind everyone else; I just finished Day 1 of Week 3 this morning. So far so good. I'm finding it very challenging not to jump around the neck to a few favorite and comfortable fingering positions for each key center, but I'm getting better each day (hopefully).
So far I haven't really noticed any improvements transfer over to my soloing when playing over changes in a live setting, but I'm putting my trust in the program and approaching each session with attentiveness and focus. I know at the very least that I won't be getting any worse, lol. We'll see how things are in another 17 weeks. I suspect that this approach isn't necessarily designed to make one solo well - it's designed to put you in a position to begin to learn how to solo well. Sort of like learning the rules of grammar, and expanding your vocabulary, doesn't make you a good writer - but it puts you in the position to become a good writer. Or, rather, it's difficult to be a good writer if you have a limited vocabulary and can't string together a well structured sentence.
-Travis
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Have any of you improvised a set of simpler changes over the chords?
That is, when your harmony is, say, a iii-vi, do you think of these chords as the I and use chord tones of the I?
During a two measure ii-V7alt do you treat each measure as just V7alt (or just ii) or do you isolate each chord separately and focus on the chord tones of each chord?
Over tritone subs (say D7alt subbing for Ab7) do you use chord tones and approaches from the actual V7 or from the sub?
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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When you say you're ignoring the passing chords and subs, do you mean you're recording the chords in a more vanilla fashion? I've been using HR's changes as written for chords, but find that improvising over them as if they were the vanilla chords often sounds pretty good.
Autumn Leaves (Jazz Guitar Live)
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