Playing with drummers who are so good that I can't find the pulse easily

**ghoststrat** · 03-18-2017, 04:58 PM

A few times in my time I've found myself in a situation where I can't find the pulse, much less 'one' for pretty much an entire gig. "Listen to the bass player". Yeah, that's what we're told, but recently I was in a situation where the bass player was playing an ostinato, and the drummer was playing a groove with it, and I was completely lost. I couldn't find an entry point into what they were doing. I'm not even sure what question to ask here. Usually I'm able to 'hear into' the rhythm section, but couldn't even begin to in this context. The drummer and bass player were both top-notch, so it's not a question of their musicianship, this was on me.

Here's an example of something I can't even begin to feel, find the pulse, find '1', etc. It's at ~1:15:

Any suggestions?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-18-2017, 05:50 PM

The example above at that mark is supposed to be an example of "free time". So it's kind of the point of the thing to not really know where 1 is in that context. Pretty poly metric and groovy, but it has a pulse.

It would be interesting to know the context. Is this at a jam where these guys disappear afterward, or do you have an opportunity to talk to them at some point?

**paulkogut** · 03-18-2017, 06:32 PM

I’ve been there. I’m sort of not there now. It’s hard to point to one single thing that got me away from there, but I’d say that I made at least as much progress in this area by listening rather than playing or practicing. What records are you into? Are the rhythm sections on the recordings playing with a similar concept to the folks you gigged with? Can you keep the form on a familiar tune when the rhythm section stretches out? For me, as well as a lot of guitarists I know, the introduction to playing with a ‘modern’ rhythm section was Jim Hall “Live” with Don Thompson and Terry Clarke. I spent a lot of time listening to I Hear A Rhapsody and Scrapple, trying not to get lost. There’s a good book/CD combo Beyond Bebop Drumming by John Riley that I found useful, and Ari Hoenig has some good instructional material out. Best wishes for your music!

PK

**ghoststrat** · 03-18-2017, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

The example above at that mark is supposed to be an example of "free time". So it's kind of the point of the thing to not really know where 1 is in that context. Pretty poly metric and groovy, but it has a pulse.

It would be interesting to know the context. Is this at a jam where these guys disappear afterward, or do you have an opportunity to talk to them at some point?

It was at a gig the other day. I have a call scheduled with the drummer next week to ask him some questions about it. Any suggestions on what to ask?

Edit: Thank you for your response, and for clarifying that - that's supposed to be free time. He said something about 'just keeping time / laying it down', and I'm sitting here like, "oh man, I'm more of an idiot than I thought I was. Great.".. because if that was an example of someone just laying down time / groove, I'm in trouble. In my experience, just laying down time has always been something so easy and relaxed, something where there were no questions as to where '1' is.

**ghoststrat** · 03-18-2017, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by paulkogut

I’ve been there. I’m sort of not there now. It’s hard to point to one single thing that got me away from there, but I’d say that I made at least as much progress in this area by listening rather than playing or practicing. What records are you into? Are the rhythm sections on the recordings playing with a similar concept to the folks you gigged with? Can you keep the form on a familiar tune when the rhythm section stretches out? For me, as well as a lot of guitarists I know, the introduction to playing with a ‘modern’ rhythm section was Jim Hall “Live” with Don Thompson and Terry Clarke. I spent a lot of time listening to I Hear A Rhapsody and Scrapple, trying not to get lost. There’s a good book/CD combo Beyond Bebop Drumming by John Riley that I found useful, and Ari Hoenig has some good instructional material out. Best wishes for your music!

PK

I'm not actually sure what records I'm into now. Nothing, really. For years now, I've been working on a project that I have a very clear vision of, and haven't felt compelled to listen to anything else. Well, I take that back. I've been shedding horn a lot, so I listen to a lot of saxophone players, but for very specific things. So really, I need to pick a record and really get into it. I actually really got into that Jim Hall record you mentioned, many years ago. I'll go back to it.

Also, thank you for the study material suggestions, as well!

**emanresu** · 03-18-2017, 08:05 PM

Try Scofield's "trim"
The insanity is written in the piece. I was asked to be quiet, very humbling experience

**ghoststrat** · 03-18-2017, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Try Scofield's "trim"
The insanity is written in the piece. I was asked to be quiet, very humbling experience

I'm familiar with the track, and will listen again. What do you mean you were asked to be quiet?

**emanresu** · 03-18-2017, 08:42 PM

I got the 1st half of the song right. But I messed up the last one. In an exam. So they told that if I cant do it, better be quiet.

Btw, that was the event that got me interested in metronomes

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-19-2017, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by ghoststrat

It was at a gig the other day. I have a call scheduled with the drummer next week to ask him some questions about it. Any suggestions on what to ask?

Edit: Thank you for your response, and for clarifying that - that's supposed to be free time. He said something about 'just keeping time / laying it down', and I'm sitting here like, "oh man, I'm more of an idiot than I thought I was. Great.".. because if that was an example of someone just laying down time / groove, I'm in trouble. In my experience, just laying down time has always been something so easy and relaxed, something where there were no questions as to where '1' is.

My gut would be that if you were getting lost in the form or completely tanking , he would have reeled it in a little bit , maybe given you more. So, you're probably doing okay but just uncomfortable? Hard to know just from what you said.

You might ask him what he thought of your playing, in terms of hanging in with what he was doing, and just be honest about where you're coming from. You're not necessarily supposed to be as down with rhythmic aspects as a drummer is anyway, all things being equal.

I would definitely take advantage of any opportunity to have a practice session with a good drummer if it's ever possible, especially one who is a little better than yourself. Beyond that, he may be able to give you some conceptual pointers or point you to recordings or other resources to look at, in getting more comfortable with different feels etc.

I would love to be playing with great players that way. Sounds like great fun. Enjoy it and congrats.

**henryrobinett** · 03-19-2017, 12:56 PM

One of the best musicians I play with was telling me about a recording session he did with Jeff "Tain" Watts. He could NOT feel the time, yet he knew it was there. The only way he could get through was to keep stomping on the quarter notes with his feet. It didn't SOUND like that. The date included Robert Hurst and Joe Henderson! My friend, whose name I'm excluding, was the pianist.

**coolvinny** · 03-19-2017, 01:11 PM

Are you sure you weren't just nervous and lacking confidence at the time? Because this has happened to me in those situations.

**christianm77** · 03-20-2017, 02:08 PM

Hi ghost strat. If I was playing with that drum groove, I would probably feel quarter notes and try and establish my own rhythmic space against and sometimes aligning with the drums. The pulse is extremely clear even thought the meter is not.

The trick of it is if you are playing a form... Then you have to hold your corner.

**Pat Clare** · 03-20-2017, 02:30 PM

Try keeping the time independently of the drummer.

**Durban** · 03-26-2017, 05:30 PM

Very interesting thread

I have good time, but sometimes battle with Evens,

paulkogut said It’s hard to point to one single thing that got me away from there, but I’d say that I made at least as much progress in this area by listening rather than playing or practicing.

i think he is right,

one of my Favourites yes old hat now is Live at Plugged Nickle Miles/Wayne and boys
that i love and can feel, maybe its particular drummers,

Ghoststrat i knew what you meant at 1.15 you right, it could be there is no reference before i hear the pulse, no problem

great drummer

**bluewaterpig** · 04-01-2017, 03:18 AM

Just my two cents, but assuming you're a competent musician, if you're having trouble hearing the downbeat in the drums, you aren't playing with a very good drummer.

**emanresu** · 04-01-2017, 08:12 AM

Youtube says this guy is the best drummer in the whole wide world

so.. could practice keeping your "ones" with this one:

**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-01-2017, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Youtube says this guy is the best drummer in the whole wide world

so.. could practice keeping your "ones" with this one:

Ha. Forget 1's.

Love how he just counts everyone else back in. :-) I don't think he's assuming anyone's counting 4 through all of that.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 04-01-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ghoststrat

A few times in my time I've found myself in a situation where I can't find the pulse, much less 'one' for pretty much an entire gig. "Listen to the bass player". Yeah, that's what we're told, but recently I was in a situation where the bass player was playing an ostinato, and the drummer was playing a groove with it, and I was completely lost. I couldn't find an entry point into what they were doing. I'm not even sure what question to ask here. Usually I'm able to 'hear into' the rhythm section, but couldn't even begin to in this context. The drummer and bass player were both top-notch, so it's not a question of their musicianship, this was on me.

Here's an example of something I can't even begin to feel, find the pulse, find '1', etc. It's at ~1:15:

Any suggestions?

It's essentially an R&B groove revoiced on the kit to fetch jazz vibe. The groove I got from it was, to my rock ears, very close to the groove in Jimi's "Little Miss Lover" from Axis: Bold as Love. He's dropping one snare-crack, and syncopating the other -- but his bass-drum and cymbal work are almost direct pulls from early funk.

As someone who's gigged on bass in a couple of bands, listening to the kick-drum is pretty-well instilled in me, and that's how I get a lot of the groove no matter the genre (assuming the genre can actually groove, of course!)

**Jazzy_Dan** · 04-06-2017, 02:40 AM

That was an enlightening short video. Earth, Water, Air, Fire.....Bring it back down to earth when in doubt...

**drbhrb** · 04-06-2017, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Just my two cents, but assuming you're a competent musician, if you're having trouble hearing the downbeat in the drums, you aren't playing with a very good drummer.

I think it's a grey area. A competent musician playing with a world class drummer who's really getting into it may get lost. I don't think that's the drummer's fault. It's a fine line to walk with trading/drum solos. I know some very good drummers who play a little too square when soloing in fear of losing the band. It should be possible to hang on, but take me some where.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 04-06-2017, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzy_Dan

That was an enlightening short video. Earth, Water, Air, Fire.....Bring it back down to earth when in doubt...

Ain't that the truth? I'm thinking I'll look at my guitar-playing with that in mind -- blues being earth, legato being water, extensions and alterations to give air, fire being ripping it up, in my mind. Good stuff!

Originally Posted by drbhrb

I think it's a grey area. A competent musician playing with a world class drummer who's really getting into it may get lost. I don't think that's the drummer's fault. It's a fine line to walk with trading/drum solos. I know some very good drummers who play a little too square when soloing in fear of losing the band. It should be possible to hang on, but take me some where.

If you ain't listening, that's on you. You've got a fair point here: in any communication, there are two parties. The corollary to that is that in any miscommunication, there's probably blame to share. Am I reading you right?

**Cunamara** · 04-06-2017, 08:48 PM

Just my humble opinion, but the job of a rhythm section is to keep the band cued in on where the time and the groove is. A rhythm section that doesn't is not a good rhythm section. They are on some sort of ego trip showing off their chops or putting down the rest of the band.

**emanresu** · 04-06-2017, 08:49 PM

It is a grey area. Music is very much about building expectations and toying with them. It's not so hard to follow the craziest melody. But when a drummer does it the "fun" way that only he knows what is what... oh.

**drbhrb** · 04-06-2017, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Just my humble opinion, but the job of a rhythm section is to keep the band cued in on where the time and the groove is. A rhythm section that doesn't is not a good rhythm section. They are on some sort of ego trip showing off their chops or putting down the rest of the band.

I think it's the role of everyone in the group to support each other and the music in a creative way. The drummer and bass player shouldn't be relegated to time keeping, they can do much more. No one should need metronomic simplicity to hang. But as someone said above, it is a two way street.

**jasaco** · 04-07-2017, 01:03 AM

When I'm leader, I sometimes find myself reluctant to give the drummer a solo, fearing that I won't know when to come back in. Now, some drummers play more 'conventionally' and it's easy to count the measures through their solo, and they will stick to the form, but with other drummers, at times, I find that either I messed up on my counting, or they have decided to go off the reservation and have launched into an extended, free-form solo. But which is the case? Should I keep trying to count this, or just give in, relax and hope that when he's done, he'll give us a strong enough cue to get back in on time? Well, sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. I don't like the anxiety of not-knowing where I am and whether I'll know when to come in or not. So I sometimes won't throw the drummer a solo. I don't feel good about that (and I suppose some of my drummers don't either), but that's where I'm at in my present development. Open to suggestions here...