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and as long as you voice the triads on adjacent strings - there's a vital vital link between all this melodic/harmonic detail and fundamental physical technique on the instrument
which is nice
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12-18-2016 02:15 PM
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And the prize for arsey pendantic comment of the day goes to - me.
Originally Posted by Groyniad
So, I use (and I think most people do?) a comparison with the major scale for scale construction, so it's natural 7 and natural 6 for a melodic minor, for instance. Is this the general understanding?
Just about consistency.
the other important place the min 6 with #7 turns up is on the fifth of the dom. chord (so on 2 of the home chord) - when it does it gives you the straight dom 7 with a flatted fifth sound (which is an important sound in its own right).
Again, this stuff is important to me. It also true that I have no friends.
so three important parts of the home sound that the melodic minor sound lives - three ways to find altered dominant sounds within the key.
and i just build triads off 1, 3, 5, and 7 of this sound (b3 and #7 if you like). this gives you many many ways to hear the altered sounds
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
My whole thing these days is super similar to this, but with a few differences. I don't generate the triads in the same fashion you seem to be. For the most part we're stumbling onto the same ones, but I also enjoy exploring dim/aug/sus/b5 triads as well, as they each add their own flair. I tend to prefer major, minor, and sus2/4 triads as they have the most bell like, open, airy (to steal your adjective) quality to them. But when dealing with dom7 chords, I also love throwing in diminished and augmented triads as they add such a great contrast. Do these exist in the Fewell way of thinking? Again, I'm only peripherally aware of his method... so I'm curious if there's an approach to those sounds. Even without them, there's SO many options just with major and minor, it's sort of astounding.
The other difference is I like to breathe even a little more air into these by letting each one exist as a complete, stand-alone entity. Rather than thinking of them as stacked and referring to them in terms of dimensions (which totally makes sense, and you can hear them getting more and more colorful)... I think of each of them as a complete unit on their own, and I label them with a chord name. So if I look at my triad options over a basic E minor tonality, I might get...
*E minor triad - Emin (Such a simple sound... I actually actively avoid the 7 and use this mostly as a minor i chord)
*G Major triad - Emin7
*B minor triad - Emin9
*D Major triad - E-11(9)
The fascinating thing I found by just sitting and exploring what each of these sounds like separately is that each one behaves differently. ((Christian, this is what I was trying to explain in that other thread... maybe I'll be able to express this idea more clearly here))
What ends up happening is the triad itself becomes (what I refer to as) 'tonicized'. While playing melodically within any of these 4 tonal worlds, the notes of the triad actually starts to behave like 'DO', 'MI' (or 'me), and 'SO'... effectively changing the entire tension and resolution points within the arch of the melody. Set aside the idea of playing changes for a second and just look at the tonal/modal implications of that. That means we can intentionally create 4 different root notes against an E chord, melodically speaking. Just with these triads... not to mention all the other options (Amaj, F#min, F#Maj, Gmin, etc). We can develop melodies that integrate the more colorful notes directly into the most stable resolution points, if we want to. Think about what that would offer us when playing a ballad and needed to say more with fewer notes. It's kind of wild. And we can take the boring old 'E' root note -- that we so often want to learn to get away from -- and make it sound and function like something else entirely... in the 4 options listed above the E note can be made to function like 'Do', 'La', 'Fa', and 'Te'.
Once I run through all of that, then I would step up to your level groyniad, and start to combine them in different ways, or add chromaticism and runs, or mix and match, or move through changes with them. And I absolutely LOVE your point about shooting the arrow only when it's not already in the target. Not to sound too much like Miles here, but you're right. The notes we avoid playing are just as important as the notes we do play. If we're trying to target a certain sound to move towards, and we give up those notes before we get there, it's sort of like someone telling us how a movie is going to end... spoiler alert. Structuring lines and melodies and playing through changes with this stuff allows us to have way more options for targeting. Not only can we avoid giving away the plot, but we can also 'tonicize' any notes we want within the line to create alternate and unexpected twists and endings in our lines.
Sounds great man, and love the hat! Looking forward to hearing more
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fascinating stuff jordan - and i'm delighted you enjoyed the 'sharing' video. thanks.
i'm very conscious of being at a very early stage with this way of hearing things and setting them out on the guitar. its a joy to explore - i feel like the sounds i've been after for ages are now just right there - and that's great.
i'm still working on seeing how far a natural minor type sound and a melodic minor type sound can get me - so that's pretty conservative of me really.
i just can't wait to get shrunk and stretched triads in there too (dim and aug etc.) - but i can hardly play the one's i'm finding. just starting to have the right hand technique that's required to get these things out.
and the stuff about temporary 'tonicization' is seriously interesting - integrating the more colourful notes into the most stable resolution points....i'll be ready for that one day soon i hope....
thanks again - i'll do another vid. along similar lines for the thread.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
as an ex-academic i'm actually trying quite hard to come across all casual about all the technical things - i have to positively subvert my natural tendency to go systematic on everything and sort out all important terminological tickles.
but i totally get what you're saying - and of course - you're right.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
I suppose I sort of think about it like a painter getting to know their colors more deeply. Like Picasso going through his blue period and just seeing how far he can take something as simple as the color blue. And what gorgeous work he discovered!
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@Jordan....
It's funny how we learn to add things to a minor chord, and yet there is nothing that sounds like a minor triad. Everything you add to it changes the mood.
I suppose that's true of all chords. Respect the triad! ;-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Thanks for the vid, and following discussion. I had never heard of Garrison Fewell, but after a few listenings think I am a believer.
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Garrison Fewell also had a youtube channel where he discussed these ideas for those interested.
gflat9's channel
- YouTube
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I have both Garrison's books but never really dug into them that much. I understand the concepts he is using but I don't feel they outline the chords that well. Am I missing something?
For example, in a I-vi-ii-V-I would you use the same triads build from the relative minor?
His approach, to me, seems to lend a key centred feel to the playing instead of outlining the actual chords. Of course, if you are outlining the chords with the chord tones of that chord, then doesn't that defeat the purpose of his system?Last edited by bingefeller; 12-24-2016 at 06:32 AM.
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Hi Christian,
You've got a friend...I'm equally pedantic about the difference between the #11 and b5. I have a classically trained mate who often writes the b5 as a #4 which he refers to as 'augmented fourth' - he was at the Royal Academy - you'd like him
But Groyniad is doing great work here...
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Originally Posted by bingefeller
just back from christmas trip....
good question - its very important to get clear about this issue
I and vi are the same sound (I and VI ain't - and that's important - i would get the VI sound by using a melodic minor sound a half step above its root)
II is the same as V - one of the great great features of this approach is that one can get a whole lot of juice out of a straight V sound (no alterations) by using the II sound - and the best way to do that is to unpack the II sound in the way discussed in the vid. I got further with the beautiful straight dominant sound when i discovered this approach than i had in 20 years of approaching it head-on.
so in the progression you identify there are two minor-type sounds (with all their triadic extenders) that are in play not one. other colours will be captured by the use of melodic minor sounds (with their triadic extenders) to capture alterations in the VI sound and in the V sound.
in general the whole point is to unpack harmonic detail WITHIN a sound or chord NOT between them. so its a way of getting more out of the 2 sounds that make up the I vi ii V progression - not a way of reducing the number of sounds involved to 1.
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here's a follow up video in which i talk a bit and then play a bit. i wanted to show some of the ideas discussed actually being used in some playing. hope this is still useful stuff. really enjoying the 'triad' theme here - though this stuff is very elementary in comparison with other recent threads.
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Late to game as always, but thanks for the videos. I bought the Fewell books because of your posts and have just started working on the first one. I have tried a number of method books over the years but this is the first time I really feel I can relate to what the author is talking about. His focus on triads and extensions is just more in keeping with with my hearing of tonal relationships. Plus I really like his focus on articulation. I have put in a good amount of time on theory in the last number of years which I think allows me to better understand where he is going. So it may well be an instance of the right approach at the right time. And I hope proper application of effort on my part will better allow me appreciate yours. Again, thanks for the work.
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Hi.
Is anybody working on it? Im askinig because this Garrison Fewell approach developed me a lot. And Im looking for people with whom i can share opinion and experience.
Cheers Tomash
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Hi and welcome! Garrison Fewell's approch has got me started on jazz guitar. I'M still going back to his books and revisit the material - there's still a lot to discover there.
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Yes, exacly. The book offers a lot of option.
Its perfect for me because this is complete system of organising the fretboard and harmonic stuff.
I love this kind of alterating that you have e.g. G7 and You can play #G minor triads. Great Sound.
I also descovered that you can play minor triads start from #4 like tritone substitute.
But I can understatnd how to unpack melodic minor sound. Or harmonic minor. Groyniad wrote about it but I didnt catch it. Any ideas?
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Originally Posted by freud
Abm triads are great, also Abm6
Melodic minor happens when you put the 7 on it. But basically I see that as playing ‘minor lines’ on the Abm.
Don’t overlook how these things relate to the chord tones of the target chord. Don’t play over chords only - learn to resolve
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Hi Christianm. Thanks for Your reply.
So if I understand You properly: If want to play melodic minor over Gm7 chord I should play Abm7 triad?
And what do You mean?:
"Don’t overlook how these things relate to the chord tones of the target chord. Don’t play over chords only - learn to resolve."
Can You develope it?
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Originally Posted by freud
Abm6 not Abm7 (which is not a triad)
Practice running Abm6 into C, C7 and Cm6.
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Yes,of course. I meant G7 dominant.
I use both Abm6 and Abm7 in the same time. One fingering. Standard + this one note extra. And Im chooseing better in current context.
How do You deal with chords from Garrisons book?
I find a lot of shapes. But there are some shortcomings. Do You thing this Garrisons system is good for learning chords? Its challenge for me.
Cheers!
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Originally Posted by freud
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Thank You very much Christian for Your advices.
Anybody have something else to add? Any interesting expierence with this method? Any Influence?
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