Georgia on my mind

[vinniejazz]

Hello!

This is my first post!

I'm trying to improvise over this this tune called Georgia on my Mind.
I know the chords and i can play it, but i find it very difficult to determine what scales and arpeggios are useable for this progression. And how (and when) to use them?

Any help would be great. Thanks!

--------------------
the chords that i play are:

Fmaj7 - Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7 - Dm7/C - Bm7flat5 - E7alt - Am7 - D7 - Gm7 - C7

[eh6794]

I'm sure you'll have many better suggestions than mine, but for now, play basic arpeggios over everything. Then play different arpeggios over those arpeggios.

Make a fluid line going from low strings to high. The number 5 is a LOW A on the 6 string, the 3 is a C on the 5 string etc Fmaj | 5 3 3 2 x x | Em7b5 | x x x 3 5 3 |

I should have figured out how to write it down a different way; I confused myself haha

Since you were on the G, maybe slide up the 1 string to the C# then go down the strings for an A arpeggio (The x is still the 6 string) A7 |x 12 11 9 10 9 | Remember, I went down the strings with that arpeggio.

I know I probably confused you, but nobody else tried to help you haha I like big intervals,some don't. Make everything fluid.

[vinniejazz]

Thanks!

So this part you describe:

Since you were on the G, maybe slide up the 1 string to the C# then go down the strings for an A arpeggio (The x is still the 6 string) A7 |x 12 11 9 10 9 | Remember, I went down the strings with that arpeggio.

In which part of the progression i should play this?

[Jonah]

First of all you should rely on your hearing... are you able to improvize through the changes whistling or singing?
Try to copy it (and theoretical knowledge will help you to go through it faster)

Second... if you cannot relate arpeggios or scales with the chords and you cannot udnerstand how they work...
you definitely need to get more theory... to understand relations and functions

I would love to explain you... but it is a huge topic.. it is just impossible to say: use this and that arpeggio... you should understand why you use it, what sound you want to achieve, why this arpeggio works for this, and that does not work...

And third... check some records you like - what the players play... litteraly.. and how you would organize it in relation to scales or arpeggio (dont ask how these pplayers did it, just try to organize it yourself - there are always relations in music even if we do not name it)...

I do not want to look like arrogan snob...

So just a small practical thing:

1) try to play basic arpeggio and arpeggio of the chord in 3rd realtion (for Fmaj7 it is Fmaj7, Am7, Dm7; for E-7b5 it is E-7b5,C7,G-7), to identify the correct relatd chord you should be able to understand diatonic realtions.
And try to hear and understand which sound different arpeggios produce over the same chord.

2) try to be rythmically clear in lines... create 1 or 2 rythmic phrases and try to variate it through arpeggios you use...

3) Basic scales can be used by the same diatonic rule I mentioned in th 1) point.
If you use scales.. play scales in intervals (not consequently)... like in 3rds (say for F Ionian: F-A, G-Bb, A-C etc.), then in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths... and then mix it: 5th up, 4th dow, 3rd up etc. Using scales again try to be rythmically clear...


If you think melodically in scales it shoulb intervalic movement (jump up 4rth, down 2nd, dow 3rd etc.)
If you think melodically in arps it is rather harmonic movement (tension and release of suspensions, voiceleading)

I would prefer the second as fundamental.. but ideally both are working together


Note these are very basic things... there are much more options, but even these are quite enough to create very nice and impressive lines...
Just trust your ears first

[Runepune]

You can try a pentatonic approach. It's a very bluesy tune.

E.g.:

Fmaj7 -F maj pentatonic
Em7b5 - A min pentatonic
A7 - - -
Dm7 - D min pentatonic
Dm7/C - - -
Bm7b5 - - -
Bbm6 - F min pentatonic
Am7 - - -
D7 - - -
Gm7 - - -
C7 - - -

(Didn't quite agree with your Ealt, so I changed it to a Bbm6)
So you get away with 4 pentatonics (or 3, considering F and Dm are the same notes). Do all the minor ones real bluesy, and pull that third up when needed (e.g. on A7)

[vinniejazz]

Right, so.. this diatonic chord relations. You mix arpeggios from the chords 1-3-6 when you are for instance in the begin chord F?

And this approach could be used with a sub-dominant or dominant chord?
Like for subdominant the 2-4 chord and for dominant 5-7?

[vinniejazz]

Thanks Runepune,

It is bluesy indeed..sounds good with those pentatonic scales although i'm trying a little bit to get out of my pentatonic playing.

[Jonah]

Right, so.. this diatonic chord relations. You mix arpeggios from the chords 1-3-6 when you are for instance in the begin chord F?

And this approach could be used with a sub-dominant or dominant chord?
Like for subdominant the 2-4 chord and for dominant 5-7?

Let's look like this...

We have F major scale
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E
If we harmonize each tone with 7th chords - we'll have
Fmaj7 - Gm7 - Am7 - Bbmaj7 - C7 - Dm7 - E-7b5

There are relative chords in this chain - those chords that have 3 tones in common with principal chord which presunably allows them to have the same function in harmonic context (this is basically classical music conception just extended to 7th chords)

Fmaj7 - Am7-Dm7; Gm7-Em5b7-Bbmaj7; Am7-Fmaj7-C7; Bbmaj7 - Gm7 - Dm7; C7 - Em7b5 - Am7; Dm7 - Fmaj7 - Bbmaj7; Em7b5-C7-Gm7

(you can see that the relatives 3rd up/down away from the priciple)

So you can use relative chords (and all the material bases on these chords like arps, scales etc) as subs or superimposition for original chord... of course with care and attention to context.

Actually final chords that lead back to reprise (Am7-D7-Gm7-C7) are derived from these relations..

Basically it's Fmaj7-Fmaj7- Bbmaj7-C7 (comon classic T-T-S-D)

then step by step:
Dm7 is relative to Fmaj7 so we get Fmaj7 - Dm7 -Bbmaj7 - C 7
Gm7 is relative to Bbmaj7 so we get Fmaj7 - Dm7 - Gm7 - C7
Am7 is relative to Fmaj7 and we get Am7-Dm7-Gm7-C7

And then to increase tension we turn minor chords in dom7 and get
Am7-D7-Gm7-C7

Of course nobody thought like this... but this is a nature of it.


So back to arps and all
with these relatives you'll get different colour and extensions
for example
if you play C7 arp over Am7 chord you will have b9 in original chord... (Amb9 chord sound)
etc.

You can also use 'relatives' of the realtives (2 tones in common)... but since they are more distant relations (less notes in common) you should be more careful...

The important thing here is that you should be able to easily identify to which key belongs certain chord in the context...
Here we imply common classical functional tonality on micro level...

For example:
Georgia is in general in F major... but already 3rd chord A7 does not belong to the key... this is actually dom chord to Dm7... strictly speaking it is very short change of key (to harmonic D minor)... but it is so short that we would not consider it in general analysis.
I would just say that it is common turnaround III7-VIm7 in F major (where dom chords just increases tension)....
But if you will imply method I described above you should look at A7 ifrom another point of view...
Here A7 is dom in D harmonic minor, so its relatives are C#dim and Fmaj7aug...
(tha it is you should be able to harmonize D harmonic minor scale)...

Same thing on...

By the way instead of Ealt I would play Bbm7 - Eb7... and if you imply the method it will be II-V in Ab major... so you'll have realtives in another key

Anywhere you see II-V turnaround you should be able to identify the key and then have the relatives down...

The important point is that all this gives you only material: scope of notes that can give you some sound in general (kind of harmonic colour)... and to make a line from these notes is what makes it a music
You can use scales respectively to same chords if you want...

This is only one of possible approaches... but I think it's good when it is basic approach... because this gives good feel and understanding of diatonic harmony relations and whatever you use after that will be added to this for the better

[christianm77]

Hello!

This is my first post!

I'm trying to improvise over this this tune called Georgia on my mind.
I know the chords and i can play it, but i find it very difficult to determine what scales and arpeggio's are useable for this progression. And..how (and when) to use them?

Any help would be great. Thanks!

--------------------
the chords that i play are:

Fmaj7 - Em7flat5 - A7 - Dm7 - Dm7/C - Bm7flat5 - Ealt - Am7 - D7 - Gm7 - C7

Cool tune.

It all depends on how caught up you want to get in the harmony (as always!) I mean, major/minor blues works great on this tune :-)

But I daresay that's not the answer you are looking for.

F --> Dm (relative minor) --> Am7 --> F

What does this mean? Well let's break down the changes by function shall we? I group ii-V's together, kind of as a unit. I'll stick parentheses around them, and put the other chords in bold.

F (Em7b5 A7) Dm (Bm7b5 E7alt) (Am D7) (Gm7 C7)

Lot's of ii-V's right! Now when we play over a ii-V, one way of looking at it is that we have the option of playing over the m7 or the 7. In this way, I like to see the Am7 as the thing the Bm7b5 E7 is going towards and drop the D7, but you don't have to do it this way. But let's go with it.

F (Em7b5 A7) Dm (Bm7b5 E7alt) Am (Gm7 C7)

Basically we are thinking of three separate keys F, Dm, Am

Ok, so now your job is really to play as little as possible on the chords in bold (just resolve into them with one note) and play stuff over the ii-V's. What do you play on the ii-V's? Well your ii-V language!

If it's scale's you want, it could work like this:

Fmajor A7alt Ddorian E7alt Adorian C7, for instance.

But really, it could be anything. The important thing is to play resolutions in the target chord.

[craigoslo]

-Over the F, Em7b5, Dm, Am, Gm and C7 chords, you can use the notes of the F major scale.

-Over the A7 use the F major scale but sharpen (up one fret) the fifth step (#5). That will give you a scale that works great over the A7 (A Phrygian dominant) but an easier way to look at it.

-Over the Bm7b5 use the F major scale but sharpen the forth step (#4)

-Over the Ealt use the F major scale but flatten the third step (b3)

-Over the D7 use the F major scale but sharpen the first, and flatten the seventh step. (#1,b7)

So if I mark the changed notes over the chords that don't fit with the F major scale it would look like this. Remember, these are the notes that are changed from the F major scale:


Fmaj7 - Em7flat5 -
#5
A7 - Dm7 - Dm7/C -
#4
Bm7flat5 -
b3
Ealt - Am7 -
#1,b7
-D7 - - Gm7 - C7

As you can see, you use the F major scale the whole time, you just have to adjust a note or two, here and there.
Hope that helps.

[vinniejazz]

Let's look like this...

We have F major scale
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E
If we harmonize each tone with 7th chords - we'll have
Fmaj7 - Gm7 - Am7 - Bb7 - C7 - Dm7 - E-7b5

There are relative chords in this chain - those chords that have 3 tones in common with principal chord which presunably allows them to have the same function in harmonic context (this is basically classical music conception just extended to 7th chords)

Fmaj7 - Am7-Dm7; Gm7-Em5b7-Bb7; Am7-Fmaj7-C7; Bbmaj7 - Gm7 - Dm7; C7 - Em7b5 - Am7; Dm7 - Fmaj7 - Bb7; Em7b5-C7-Gm7

(you can see that the relatives 3rd up/down away from the priciple)

So you can use relative chords (and all the material bases on these chords like arps, scales etc) as subs or superimposition for original chord... of course with care and attention to context.

Actually final chords that lead back to reprise (Am7-D7-Gm7-C7) are derived from these relations..

Basically it's Fmaj7-Fmaj7- Bb7-C7 (comon classic T-T-S-D)

then step by step:
Dm7 is relative to Fmaj7 so we get Fmaj7 - Dm7 -Bb7 - C 7
Gm7 is relative to Bb7 so we get Fmaj7 - Dm7 - Gm7 - C7
Am7 is relative to Fmaj7 and we get Am7-Dm7-Gm7-C7

And then to increase tension we turn minor chords in dom7 and get
Am7-D7-Gm7-C7

Of course nobody thought like this... but this is a nature of it.


So back to arps and all
with these relatives you'll get different colour and extensions
for example
if you play C7 arp over Am7 chord you will have b9 in original chord... (Amb9 chord sound)
etc.

You can also use 'relatives' of the realtives (2 tones in common)... but since they are more distant relations (less notes in common) you should be more careful...

The important thing here is that you should be able to easily identify to which key belongs certain chord in the context...
Here we imply common classical functional tonality on micro level...

For example:
Georgia is in general in F major... but already 3rd chord A7 does not belong to the key... this is actually dom chord to Dm7... strictly speaking it is very short change of key (to harmonic D minor)... but it is so short that we would not consider it in general analysis.
I would just say that it is common turnaround III7-VIm7 in F major (where dom chords just increases tension)....
But if you will imply method I described above you should look at A7 ifrom another point of view...
Here A7 is dom in D harmonic minor, so its relatives are C#dim and Fmaj7aug...
(tha it is you should be able to harmonize D harmonic minor scale)...

Same thing on...

By the way instead of Ealt I would play Bbm7 - Eb7... and if you imply the method it will be II-V in Ab major... so you'll have realtives in another key

Anywhere you see II-V turnaround you should be able to identify the key and then have the relatives down...

The important point is that all this gives you only material: scope of notes that can give you some sound in general (kind of harmonic colour)... and to make a line from these notes is what makes it a music
You can use scales respectively to same chords if you want...

This is only one of possible approaches... but I think it's good when it is basic approach... because this gives good feel and understanding of diatonic harmony relations and whatever you use after that will be added to this for the better

Allright. Thank you! This is great stuff!!! Now i understand those chord relations. And how the turnaround is derived from the TTSD. Never thought about it that way.. Very helpful

[Runepune]

We have F major scale
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E
If we harmonize each tone with 7th chords - we'll have
Fmaj7 - Gm7 - Am7 - Bb7 - C7 - Dm7 - E-7b5

There are relative chords in this chain - those chords that have 3 tones in common with principal chord which presunably allows them to have the same function in harmonic context (this is basically classical music conception just extended to 7th chords)

Fmaj7 - Am7-Dm7; Gm7-Em5b7-Bb7; Am7-Fmaj7-C7; Bbmaj7 - Gm7 - Dm7; C7 - Em7b5 - Am7; Dm7 - Fmaj7 - Bb7; Em7b5-C7-Gm7

(you can see that the relatives 3rd up/down away from the priciple)

So you can use relative chords (and all the material bases on these chords like arps, scales etc) as subs or superimposition for original chord... of course with care and attention to context.

Actually final chords that lead back to reprise (Am7-D7-Gm7-C7) are derived from these relations..

Basically it's Fmaj7-Fmaj7- Bb7-C7 (comon classic T-T-S-D)

then step by step:
Dm7 is relative to Fmaj7 so we get Fmaj7 - Dm7 -Bb7 - C 7

Not sure I get all these Bb7's...You don't fancy Bbmaj7?

[Jonah]

You don't fancy Bbmaj7?

sure sorry... did it in a rush

There's only one dom7 in any major scale

I correct my post

[vinniejazz]

Cool tune.

It all depends on how caught up you want to get in the harmony (as always!) I mean, major/minor blues works great on this tune :-)

But I daresay that's not the answer you are looking for.

F --> Dm (relative minor) --> Am7 --> F

What does this mean? Well let's break down the changes by function shall we? I group ii-V's together, kind of as a unit. I'll stick parentheses around them, and put the other chords in bold.

F (Em7b5 A7) Dm (Bm7b5 E7alt) (Am D7) (Gm7 C7)

Lot's of ii-V's right! Now when we play over a ii-V, one way of looking at it is that we have the option of playing over the m7 or the 7. In this way, I like to see the Am7 as the thing the Bm7b5 E7 is going towards and drop the D7, but you don't have to do it this way. But let's go with it.

F (Em7b5 A7) Dm (Bm7b5 E7alt) Am (Gm7 C7)

Basically we are thinking of three separate keys F, Dm, Am

Ok, so now your job is really to play as little as possible on the chords in bold (just resolve into them with one note) and play stuff over the ii-V's. What do you play on the ii-V's? Well your ii-V language!

If it's scale's you want, it could work like this:

Fmajor A7alt Ddorian E7alt Adorian C7, for instance.

But really, it could be anything. The important thing is to play resolutions in the target chord.

Oke, so you make groups of II-V's.. Is there a difference in minor and Major II-V's?
Normally a half dim (as a II chord) resolves to a minor (I-chord) right? And a minor (as a II chord) resolves to a Maj7 (I-chord)?

So, the Altered scale (from the dominant chord) can be applied on both the half dim (II chord) and the minor (II chord)?

[christianm77]

Oke, so you make groups of II-V's.. Is there a difference in minor and Major II-V's?
Normally a half dim (as a II chord) resolves to a minor (I-chord) right? And a minor (as a II chord) resolves to a Maj7 (I-chord)?

So, the Altered scale (from the dominant chord) can be applied on both the half dim (II chord) and the minor (II chord)?

Yeah you could do - it's not 'proper' but if you are ignoring the m7b5's there's no reason why not, if the change isn't lasting for too long. It's not the default choice I would use, but that's a whole other area of discussion.

Also yes majors and minors are different. But majors can be swapped out for minors for more colour.

The point is in a sense not what you are playing on the ii V, but how you are resolving dissonance into the target chord. Anyway, this is all much more fundamental than analysing a tune.

How you play ii-V's is kind of a whole other area. Many jazz improvisers learn by learning language they can apply to ii-V-I's in all keys and then breaking down tunes into combinations if ii-V's.

Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread.

[WillMbCdn5]

Ted Greene has a wonderful version and notes and ideas on that tune here -

TedGreene.com - Teachings


hope that helps

Will

[va3ux]

Geez a guy from Winnipeg should be promoting this version. Recorded right in Winnipeg

[WillMbCdn5]

Geez a guy from Winnipeg should be promoting this version. Recorded right in Winnipeg

I arrived in Winnipeg after Lenny's time here but have friends who talk about him playing around town . I love his version as well and all his stuff for that matter just a bit over my head technique wise - maybe someday

Will

[WillMbCdn5]

There is also a version by Scofield that has some great ideas scattered around . I love!!!!!!!! the line starting at 0:29 and going to 0:36 not sure what the theory base is but it sounds delicious.