Chord over chord while improvising

[rpjazzguitar]

I know that great players can do it. That is, play a strong line against any harmony.

But, if I try, say, to play the melody of Misty or Donna Lee or whatever, I can't make it sound good over unrelated changes. Strong melodies, right? Getting them to work over unrelated changes must require something more. I think it may be the length of time that you're outside the changes. That is, you have to come back inside at the right time. Too soon, and the outside note sounds like a clam. Too late, and it sounds like you're soloing over the wrong tune.

[christianm77]

I know that great players can do it. That is, play a strong line against any harmony.

But, if I try, say, to play the melody of Misty or Donna Lee or whatever, I can't make it sound good over unrelated changes. Strong melodies, right? Getting them to work over unrelated changes must require something more. I think it may be the length of time that you're outside the changes. That is, you have to come back inside at the right time. Too soon, and the outside note sounds like a clam. Too late, and it sounds like you're soloing over the wrong tune.

Well you have basically described the important thing. You have to know where you are going and when you arrive.

Not all of this stuff is value free if that makes any sense.

Some players will acquire language direct from records, others will use patterns, or some other approach.

But it all fits into this overarching concept- tension, release and the rhythmic forward motion concept. It's this interplay between rhythm and melodic/harmonic tension and resolution which to me makes the music swing...

For me this type of idea is best used with progressions which are based around one key (rhythm changes), stick around a few long chords (so what) or are highly chromatic and modulate anyway (Giant steps.) and to me this has to do with actual time in seconds, not hoe many beats a chord lasts for so much.

So, Giant steps slow requires more fidelity to the changes than giant steps fast.

Ballad playing is another discipline and for me has a lot to do with the melody of the song... These ideas would be used as surface decoration.... It's a bit like double time in ballads... Too much and it spoils the mood.

[ragman1]

I don't know about the other one but it seems to me in 'Understanding' he's just playing minor over major, the old blues trick. Over the A maj he's playing A mel and E harm.

Playing Amaj11 as 576755 means there's no real C# in there. Both scales work fine, especially if you include a natural D as well in the E harm run. Lovely sound.

I have a feeling he just continued the D#/Eb into the Ab bar because it was there

[Vladan]

Also - tonal twelve tone playing anyone?

Have no idea, but here I play G major over FMaj7 vamp. IMO, "out" really works only if it works over static chord. If it's "all in the flow", after a while it turns into a headache, I mean physical pain, IME.

VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: VladanMovies playing notes of G major over FMaj7 chord vamp

[christianm77]

When I get back from Japan (clang!) I may spend some time exploring and demonstrating this technique... Seems like a good direction to explore.

[Vladan]

If you mean to demonstrate "my technique", I hope you'll make it so to include the link to the source.

[grahambop]

But, if I try, say, to play the melody of Misty or Donna Lee or whatever, I can't make it sound good over unrelated changes.

Neither can I, the idea is more to invent your own (probably quite simple) phrase which works. Sometimes even a simple blues lick will fit almost anything.

[christianm77]

If you mean to demonstrate "my technique", I hope you'll make it so to include the link to the source.

What is your technique?

[Vladan]

... here I play G major over FMaj7 vamp. IMO, "out" really works only if it works over static chord. If it's "all in the flow", after a while it turns into a headache, I mean physical pain, IME.

VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: VladanMovies playing notes of G major over FMaj7 chord vamp

When I get back from Japan (clang!) I may spend some time exploring and demonstrating this technique... Seems like a good direction to explore.

If you mean to demonstrate "my technique", I hope you'll make it so to include the link to the source.

What is your technique?

Hope this makes it clear. It's in the flow. If you don't make it work vertically, ie quote (the changes) - time for headache. Just include the link and we are fine.

[ragman1]

When I get back from Japan (clang!) I may spend some time exploring and demonstrating this technique... Seems like a good direction to explore.

Yes, thought you'd vanished somewhere...

[christianm77]

Hope this makes it clear. It's in the flow. If you don't make it work vertically, ie quote (the changes) - time for headache. Just include the link and we are fine.

It wasn't to do with your thing.

[grahambop]

Here's Jerry Bergonzi talking about playing 'wrong' notes but making them sound right.

[Vladan]

It wasn't to do with your thing.

I thought so, but hoped you would tell us what was it about, your statement?

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[christianm77]

I thought so, but hoped you would tell us what was it about, your statement?

VladanMovies BlogSpot

The stuff I have been posting about for the last few pages.

[Vladan]

So, when you say that after coming back from Japan you may spend some time exploring "this tehnique", "this technique" means "stuff you have been posting about ...". You have been posting about it for pages already, but still, at some time in future you might decide to explore it. Sorry to nit pick, nothing personal, but I'm just too stupid to understand what technique "this technique" is?


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[christianm77]

So, when you say that after coming back from Japan you may spend some time exploring "this tehnique", "this technique" means "stuff you have been posting about ...". You have been posting about it for pages already, but still, at some time in future you might decide to explore it. Sorry to nit pick, nothing personal, but I'm just too stupid to understand what technique "this technique" is?


Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

I might actually explore it further on the guitar and see where I can take it. No guitar atm.

[ragman1]

I'm not sure which thread to put this on.

There was a quote somewhere by some famous player that said 'it's only about getting back to the tonic, the rest doesn't matter' - or something like that, I can't find it.

So I thought okay, let's do it. Corcovado was around so I got a backing track and played it in one go only using the F major scale but with some Dm and Am blues (which is still all F major) and lots of passing notes between scale tones.

It worked, and I'm not sure it was a fluke either. It probably only works on fast stuff, of course.

The other thing is that it would be fine for a gig only doing a couple of choruses. Here I had to do far too many so only listen to two

Apologies for quality. And I can actually play it the proper way too!

[rpjazzguitar]

I have heard a very strong player talk about "targets". Meaning, your whole trip into outer space has to land, logically, on something harmonically recognizable. For example, in a blues, going into outer space for the first four bars, but then hitting a straight IV7 arpeggio in bar 5. What makes it work is if those first four bars really sound like they're leading to the lick in bar 5.

A couple of years ago I was playing a bossa nova arrangement and it turned out that I had a different chart than the rest of the band. My chart had some fancy reharmonization, but I didn't know it. I played over the changes on my chart and, for the first time ever, I heard myself sound like a sophisticated jazz player.

I've tried to recapture it by soloing on reharmonized changes while the bass and piano are playing the original changes. I've had limited success. I have found it harder to do than it sounds. But, that's what some great players do. They're putting in additional changes (in their minds) and playing an "inside" solo over the mental changes. If the mental changes flow really well and sound hip, so will the solo, probably.

[ragman1]

I played over the changes on my chart and, for the first time ever, I heard myself sound like a sophisticated jazz player.

I have suspected this for some time, Watson :-)