using melodic minor to solo over dom. 7ths

[coltranelover101]

Cool tip- Melodic Minor may be used to solo over dominant seventh chords a half step above. Ex. if soloiong over A7 use Bb Melodic Minor

[derek]

Yeah, we have had this discussion before, and it is a good use of MM, as you point out. We had a thread here on Emily Remler's approach to dominant chords. She advocates the use of MM a 5th away (Lydian Dominant) if it is a nonresolving dominant, and the use of MM 1/2 up (Super Locrian) if it is heading to the I.

Very useful information. Welcome to the group btw.

[coltranelover101]

thanks man but thats cool, emily remler was an amazing player btw and i didnt know she did that but thats sick man ill have to try that out myself

[JazzGuitarist]

Also, to solo over altered dominants you can use the harmonic minor scale. To stay in the same key, over an altered A7, playing some d harmonic minor licks sounds pretty sweet, especially if you land on the third of the chord it resolves to, which is some form of D major. I discovered this a little while back while listening to Sonny Rollins and I'm wondering if anyone else here does this or if anyone interchanges (staying in the same key) D harmonic minor and Bb melodic minor (A super locrian).

[Jazzyteach65]

Derek and I had this convo via a thread before, the melodi is very useful when used in the Larry Carlton/Remler/Pass way

[lkmuller]

Martino does that, a LOT. Check out his all blues solo.

[John Curran]

Cool tip- Melodic Minor may be used to solo over dominant seventh chords a half step above. Ex. if soloiong over A7 use Bb Melodic Minor

This is the standard altered scale (a.k.a. superlocrian). But also, if you can play Bb melodic minor over A7, you can use it over the V chord a tritone away, Eb7.

Mark Levine's method calls for melodic minor scales over Susb9 chords.
e.g.

Over
A
G
Eb
D

he recommends C melodic minor (technically the second mode of said minor).

But the above chord is the upper structure of an F13(9) chord. So you can play C melodic minor over F7.

It's also the upper structure of a B7#9#5 chord, which means you can play C melodic minor over a B7 yielding a B7alt, as coltranelover pointed out above.

And as Levine points out, there are no "avoid tones" in melodic minor harmony!


john

[bfol]

Hey Derek or anyone who cares to help, could you give an example of the use of melodic minor you described above? i am confused as to what would be nonresolving dominant chord....is the V in a basic II V I a resolving chord?(leads to the I) - if you needed to solo over V-V-V-V you go with the lydian dominant? (the V is nonresolving?)

[lkmuller]

The G7 in Girl from Ipanema would be considered a non'resolving dom. So against that you could use a D melodic minor, or as it known by many, the D Jazz Minor.

[Jazzyteach65]

Yes, You're absolutely correct. When you have a dominant chord that does NOT resolve down a fifth to the I chord, the ONLY available tensions that sound good are ninths, raised elevenths and thirteenths. This means you play the lydian-dominant scale. I like to look at these "static" or non-resolving chords, like in "Girl From Ipanema," where the second chord is a G7, and DOES not resolved down to a C, and treat them as a ii-V, playing off the melodic minor of the imaginary "ii chord" In other words, play the melodic minor scale from the fifth of the dominant chords.

Meanwhile, chords that DO resolve down a fifth to the "I" or "i" have these available tensions:sharp and lowered ninths, sharp elevenths and flatted thirteenths. Avoid the Natural thirteenth in a minor key, as it WILL inply that you're in a major key, however, a 13b9 sound does resolve beautifully down to a major chord

[bfol]

lkmuller and jazzyteach65 - thank you very much for the tips, exactly what i was looking for!

[lkmuller]

If you ever get a chance, get Emily Remler's DVD, Advanced Jazz and Latin Improvisation. Explains, with examples, the use of the jazz minor against doms. She also speaks about her feelings on music and life at the end, which, to me, is super inspiring. I go back to it from time to time just to recharge.

[derek]

Hey Derek or anyone who cares to help, could you give an example of the use of melodic minor you described above? i am confused as to what would be nonresolving dominant chord....is the V in a basic II V I a resolving chord?(leads to the I) - if you needed to solo over V-V-V-V you go with the lydian dominant? (the V is nonresolving?)

Sorry, I was off at guitar camp last week and away from the computer. lkmuller is right. Lots of other examples, like the D-7 G7 moving up to E-7 A7 in Satin Doll, the A section of Killer Joe is another example. Just because Emily suggests it doesn't mean that is the only way, but it was how she used the MM scale.

Other scalular devices would be the whole tone and whole/half diminished scale. Someone already mentioned harmonic minor.

[gravitas]

Pat Martino uses four melodic minor scales over any dominant chord... Over C7 he might use BbMelodic Minor, Db Melodic Minor, E Melodic Minor, or G Melodic Minor. The E Melodic minor has a natural seventh in it, but he uses it anyway.

[derek]

Pat Martino uses four melodic minor scales over any dominant chord... Over C7 he might use BbMelodic Minor, Db Melodic Minor, E Melodic Minor, or G Melodic Minor. The E Melodic minor has a natural seventh in it, but he uses it anyway.

Yeah, well Pat's standard answer to questions about him playing "wrong" notes like a major 7th up against the dom, is "works if you are playing fast". And of course, he is correct.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yeah, well Pat's standard answer to questions about him playing "wrong" notes like a major 7th up against the dom, is "works if you are playing fast". And of course, he is correct.

Well, if you take a note pattern and repeat it, sliding it up in minor thirds, it gives you a "diminished feel", like you are taking a diminished chord and playing inversions of it. So against C7, the 1-2-3-5 pattern:

(Gm) G A Bb D
(Bbm) Bb C Db F
(Dbm) Db Eb Fb Ab
(Em) E F# G B(nat)
(F maj - resolution) C A G F E C D E

Works for me.

[gonzales]

There is a Larry Coryell Lesson on youtube which I happened to watch yesterday. He's showing how to use melodic minor scales over all dominants in 'Stella by Starlight'. I thought I learned something completely new until I figured out that I know this scale by the name of altered scale. Anyway it's a cool lesson, though LC seems very absent, especially during tuning. Commentors discuss about him being drugged mainly.

[John Curran]

I thought I learned something completely new until I figured out that I know this scale by the name of ...

I hate it when that happens.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also, to solo over altered dominants you can use the harmonic minor scale. To stay in the same key, over an altered A7, playing some d harmonic minor licks sounds pretty sweet, especially if you land on the third of the chord it resolves to, which is some form of D major. I discovered this a little while back while listening to Sonny Rollins and I'm wondering if anyone else here does this or if anyone interchanges (staying in the same key) D harmonic minor and Bb melodic minor (A super locrian).

Bear with me a bit while I construct rather than deconstruct the A alt (Bb melodic minor /A super locrian) scale.

I start with the A alt "chord". The core of any dominant chord is root+third+seventh:

A C# G

... then I make it an alt by sprinkling in some mix of b5, #5, b9, #9:

Eb F Bb C

Hey, I've got seven notes there! Let me arrange and rename them so they look like a scale:

A Bb C Db Eb F G A

And that's how I derive the A alt scale. By coincidence, it happens to coincide with the Bb melodic minor /A super locrian scale.

Now, when you are playing the minor chord progression V7 -> imin, like A7 -> Dmin, you could also play D harmonic minor over the whole thing instead. Let's look at what that looks like over A7:

A Bb C# D E F G A

A alt versus D HM. Well, what are the differences?

1. Eb versus Enat.
2. A alt sports Cnat, while D HM has D.

I'd say the A alt wins in both cases. It's got cool blue notes, Eb (the flat 5) and Cnat (the flat 3) while D HM has E (ho-hum, the normal 5th) and D (the 4th, an avoid tone over A7). But still, why play the same thing all the time? The nice thing about D HM is that you can play it over the whole minor 2-5-1:

Emin7b5 -> A7#5b9 -> Dmin

Note the it works great against Emin7b5. The standard scale to play over that is E locrian:

E F G A Bb C D E

And the only difference between this and D HM is Cnat versus C#. Both work against Emin7b5 but I like the C# a little better -- spicier.

Conclusion: use both!

[lkmuller]

Yes, that's always worked for me. Interesting to me - has always sounded very melodic when resolving to a Im, but slightly outside when resolving to a IM.