Official Barry Harris Thread

[David B]

Christian did a great video earlier this week:

[wzpgsr]

I have a pretty good understanding of using Barry's scale outlines over basic major and minor ii-Vs, but I'm wondering how you'd use this technique on charts where more altered chord forms are specified. For instance, I'm working on a chart for All the Things You Are in which the first 8 bars are:

F-7 | Bb-7 | Eb13 A9 | C-7 D7#9#11

DbM7 Db6 | D-11 Db9#11 | CM7 D-7 | E-7 A-7

Here's what I've been doing:

Bar 1: Ab major scale up

Bars 2 and 3: Eb7 scale up and down to 5th of A

Bar 4: ???

Bar 5: DbM scale up

Bar 6: G7 scale down

Bars 7-8: CM scale up and down

My main dilemma is bar 4. The C-7 seems to belong to the Ab key center, and that's what I'd play if not for the pesky D7#9#11, which is a tritone sub for Ab7 and/or passing chord leading to DbM. My gut tells me to simplify, but every solution I've tried seems to contains clashing notes, depending on if I play up or down.

[Bobby Marshall]

So what scale contains notes that work best with the progression C-7 D7#9#11. C D Eb F G Ab A Bb looks like Bb Dominant bebop scale but i could be wrong.

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[christianm77]

Where are you getting your attya changes from? I don't think those are the simplest changes but have some modern subs in there.

I usually think

Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Ab
Db | G7b9 | C | % |

The changes you had in your post can all be related to this progression.

I aim to master the basic chords and then reintroduce tritone subs etc later on down the line.

Bar 1 - Ab
Bar 2 & 3 - Eb7
Bar 4 & 5 - Ab
Bar 6 - Bb7 down to the third of G7
Bar 7 & 8 - C

[wzpgsr]

Where are you getting your attya changes from? I don't think those are the simplest changes but have some modern subs in there.

I usually think

Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Ab
Db | G7b9 | C | % |

The changes you had in your post can all be related to this progression.

I aim to master the basic chords and then reintroduce tritone subs etc later on down the line.

Bar 1 - Ab
Bar 2 & 3 - Eb7
Bar 4 & 5 - Ab
Bar 6 - Bb7 down to the third of G7
Bar 7 & 8 - C

Those changes are from the Howard Roberts Superchops (!!) study group. I've been able to find several sounds that work, but they don't seem very Barry Harris-y, in that he seems to usually *end* on a critical note that stresses the tonality of the dominant chord (for example, in bars 2&3 I end on the fifth of A in the same way that Barry will end on a third of dom7b9 in a minor ii-V). I like the sound of playing Ab down from the maj 7, but with a #11 instead of natural so that you're not playing a C# over the D7#9#11. But, if you're going up, you can just play Ab7 up, ending on the b7 which is also the 3 of D.

[David B]

[rlrhett]

Now that is a master class I plan on getting!


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[zephyrregent]

I have a question about the naming of a diminished chord as in the first measures of Embraceable You or Pennies From Heaven, for example. Why is the diminished chord called a flat III diminished instead of a I diminished? The first measures of both tunes go from a I major to a diminished (I call it I diminished, Barry Harris and most charts call it a flat III diminished) to a II minor to a V7. It seems natural to use a I diminished and that way you don't have to think of moving up a third to the flat III diminished. Is this something that goes back to classical harmony, or is it on the original sheet music? I've been using the Barry Harris method since 1995, know the chords are inversions of each other and it doesn't make a difference in usage, but haven't been able to find an explanation for this. Has anyone seen a chart go from I major to I diminished instead of naming it flat III diminished?

[Bobby Marshall]

My uneducated guess is that you wouldn't name it a 1 diminished unless you were in locrian since you would only name a chord using the 1 if it was functioning as the tonic.

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[David B]

I have a question about the naming of a diminished chord as in the first measures of Embraceable You or Pennies From Heaven, for example. Why is the diminished chord called a flat III diminished instead of a I diminished? The first measures of both tunes go from a I major to a diminished (I call it I diminished, Barry Harris and most charts call it a flat III diminished) to a II minor to a V7. It seems natural to use a I diminished and that way you don't have to think of moving up a third to the flat III diminished. Is this something that goes back to classical harmony, or is it on the original sheet music? I've been using the Barry Harris method since 1995, know the chords are inversions of each other and it doesn't make a difference in usage, but haven't been able to find an explanation for this. Has anyone seen a chart go from I major to I diminished instead of naming it flat III diminished?

I've just looked at a number of charts for Embraceable You. All have the first three chords as I - biiiDim - ii

At page 26 of Alan Kingstone's book, Barry is quoted as saying "why doesn't anybody play the flat three diminished anymore?" There's follows some examples of the biiiDim going to iimin7 or iiimin7.

As the diminished chord is always a moving chord, it's neater to my mind to distinguish it as much as possible from a I tonic chord.

[PMB]

I've just looked at a number of charts for Embraceable You. All have the first three chords as I - biiiDim - ii

At page 26 of Alan Kingstone's book, Barry is quoted as saying "why doesn't anybody play the flat three diminished anymore?" There's follows some examples of the biiiDim going to iimin7 or iiimin7.

As the diminished chord is always a moving chord, it's neater to my mind to distinguish it as much as possible from a I tonic chord.

I agree it is all about movement. In many instances of this progression, the I will be replaced by a iii resulting in a chromatic descent: iii-biiidim-iim7.

[Buzzz]

Barry, and fellow workshopers, if you're here, a big Hi from the Whistler, still in Hong Kong.

[christianm77]

Some scribbling

[SeanZ]

thought this might be of interest, and it's only $4.99 The Jazz Sax & Improvisation Blog of Saxophonist Bobby Stern - bobbysternjazz.com

[David B]

I'm teaching myself to use some notation software (MuseScore) and have begun to write up some notes from Barry's workshops in London last weekend.

Here's the application of scales to the tune 'Half Nelson'. Barry pointed out that when Bud Powell played 'Ladybird', he would solo on the changes to 'Half Nelson'.

I'll try to get the next example up, in which Barry had us build a long bop line from this basic structure, over the weekend.

[christianm77]

Nice one fella. That reminds me to practice the last two bars.

[A. Kingstone]

David. It looks as though you mastered that software.

I can hear Barry reciting the scales as I read your notation.

I play the turnaround leading with my pinky and hammering the middle string (2-3).

[Bobby Marshall]

In bar 6 you note "E7 up" with the notes
E Gb Ab A B Db D instead of noting as
E F# G# A B C# D aka E mixolydian. I know it is all enharmonic but Gb and Ab in relation to E7 are not as clear as to their relation to the chord as F# and G#. Is there a reason to do this?

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[christianm77]

Whoa there - there's only space for one enharmonazi on this forum.

[rlrhett]

I've been wanting to ease my way into BH concepts for single line improvisation, but I realize it will probably be too painful unless I just jump all the way in. Is there a book that covers these concepts in depth? I see snippets of his building block 5 phrases, "rules" for chromatic passing tones, definitions for what an "arpeggio" is vs a "chord", etc. I recently got "Talk Jazz Guitar", but it feels like it is skipping along the surface. What would be the best resource for an insomniac like me to sit down with and really get a presentation of BH single line improvisation from A-Z?

In the mean while, I hope no one minds a quick question from a complete neophyte:

RBH sets out BH "Rules" for chromatic passing tones applied to major and dominant scales. Why are they always descending? Do you use the same rules for ascending, or does ascending follow a different rule?

[David B]

I've been wanting to ease my way into BH concepts for single line improvisation, but I realize it will probably be too painful unless I just jump all the way in. Is there a book that covers these concepts in depth? I see snippets of his building block 5 phrases, "rules" for chromatic passing tones, definitions for what an "arpeggio" is vs a "chord", etc. I recently got "Talk Jazz Guitar", but it feels like it is skipping along the surface. What would be the best resource for an insomniac like me to sit down with and really get a presentation of BH single line improvisation from A-Z?

In the mean while, I hope no one minds a quick question from a complete neophyte:

RBH sets out BH "Rules" for chromatic passing tones applied to major and dominant scales. Why are they always descending? Do you use the same rules for ascending, or does ascending follow a different rule?

Between 'Talk Jazz Guitar' (which contains a lot of it) and the two DVD/workbook sets from Howard Rees (links in post #1), you'll have it all. As far as having it laid out A-Z, you'll have to put in the legwork yourself.

Barry's "rules" are taught in application to descending scales (as I write this, I'm looking at 'Talk Jazz Guitar', the DVD workbooks and the "rules" sheet given out at Barry's weekly class in NYC - all are concerned with descending scales). There is one brief example in the second workbook of added notes to an ascending harmonic minor scale but otherwise I've seen no mention in the literature or lessons out there.

I'll stick my neck out and suggest that plain old ascending scales (by which I mean scales that aren't broken into intervals, embellished with approach tones etc) don't crop up all that often in bebop language. By contrast, an arpeggio up / scale descending immediately sounds like a piece of bebop language.

[rlrhett]

As far as having it laid out A-Z, you'll have to put in the legwork yourself.

Sounds like a pitch idea to Mel Bay or Alfred Publishing. @christanm77, this might be you buddy. Just say'n...

[rlrhett]

There is one brief example in the second workbook of added notes to an ascending harmonic scale but otherwise I've seen no mention in the literature or lessons out there.

Yes, I noticed in the example you provided the scale runs are the basic scale without chromaticism. They go up or up and down, but never just descending. I suppose a run that starts up from the root will have 1,3,5,7 on the down beat without any chromatic alteration. The back down likewise has 5,3,1 on the down beats.

The point of the added chromatics was to make chord tones fall on the down beat. Maybe the answer is as simple as chromatics aren't needed in ascending lines.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Between 'Talk Jazz Guitar' (which contains a lot of it) and the two DVD/workbook sets from Howard Rees (links in post #1), you'll have it all. As far as having it laid out A-Z, you'll have to put in the legwork yourself.

Barry's "rules" are taught in application to descending scales (as I write this, I'm looking at 'Talk Jazz Guitar', the DVD workbooks and the "rules" sheet given out at Barry's weekly class in NYC - all are concerned with descending scales). There is one brief example in the second workbook of added notes to an ascending harmonic minor scale but otherwise I've seen no mention in the literature or lessons out there.

I'll stick my neck out and suggest that plain old ascending scales (by which I mean scales that aren't broken into intervals, embellished with approach tones etc) don't crop up all that often in bebop language. By contrast, an arpeggio up / scale descending immediately sounds like a piece of bebop language.

David, I'd be curious about your thoughts (and Christian's and others') on fingerings for the "added note" scales, - whether they're similar to what Roni Benhur lies out in " talk jazz guitar" etc.

Once one gets THAT chromatic, there are decisions to be made. I can infer some of Roni's approach/philosophy from his book but am interested in other's as well. Thanks.

[David B]

David, I'd be curious about your thoughts (and Christian's and others') on fingerings for the "added note" scales, - whether they're similar to what Roni Benhur lies out in " talk jazz guitar" etc.

A couple of examples of where I may differ from Roni (who for the record is one of the best teachers I've encountered in person).

Page 12. Example "Rule #1 from the tonic"
Roni's fingering: 4 3 1, 4 3 1 1, 4 2
My fingering: 4 3 1, 4 4 3 1, 4 2

I prefer to play the Ab with the "pinky" and then slide down a fret ready to pick the G, rather than shift the hand or push out with the index finger to get the E.

Page 12. Example "Rule #5 from the 2nd"
Roni's fingering: 2 1, 4 3 1, 4 3 1 1, 4 2
My fingering: 1, 4 4 3 1, 4 4 2 1, 4 2

I move the Db from B string to the G string and continue to lead/slide with the pinky as I descend across the strings.

I came to this way of thinking some time ago after watching this Miles Okazaki video on how he fingers a chromatic scale.