Official Barry Harris Thread

[Jbcjazz]

Right scale outlines for like a minor tune like alone together would u use D minor aeolian to b7 etc I get the rest I've just heard where he mixes nat 7, nat 6 in minors, hope that makes sense short hand.

[A. Kingstone]

You can't short-cut Barry's teaching. If you're serious about learning the Barry Harris method to bebop lines and sophisticated harmony invest in Howard Rees' workshop videos.

It will amount to about $300 dollars and a lifetime of dedication.

Your choice.


Don't skip the singers video, some of the most useful rhythmic information is found there.

[bediles]

Yeah they used to confuse me a bit, but there's a specific rhythmic component and some "gestures" that you have to know (like "Bb7 to the third of G" or whatever). Without that baseline they wouldn't really make much sense. But then it's used mostly for getting the sound of a tune in your ear. And on guitar those little one-octave shapes are kind of a nice practice for streamlining the whole "okay F7 scale is Bb which is this pattern here" thought process.

Bonus: I have it on good authority that I will be in possession of the workshop dvds on Christmas (or maybe my birthday, which is thereabouts anyway).

What are you looking to get out of the BH workshops? I assume most of it will be some kind of recapitulation of what you know/can do already. You have a B. Mus, right? Curiosity of different methods perhaps?

Not trying to throw shade... yet

[pamosmusic]

What are you looking to get out of the BH workshops? I assume most of it will be some kind of recapitulation of what you know/can do already. You have a B. Mus, right? Curiosity of different methods perhaps?

Not trying to throw shade... yet

I do have a music degree. What I've gotten into from Barry-land so far has been pretty different than the way stuff was presented in school, though.

And also yes ... different methods. I get a lot out of going really deep on stuff that's different than the way I normally think. I don't really do that with just anything. I went super deep on Jordan Klemons stuff in spring and summer and got a lot out of it. I know Jordan well and he has a very peculiar way of looking at things so I went for it. Kind of similar vibes with the Barry stuff. A very idosyncratic but well-thought approach to the whole thing.

[pamosmusic]

Bring the shade.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Right scale outlines for like a minor tune like alone together would u use D minor aeolian to b7 etc I get the rest I've just heard where he mixes nat 7, nat 6 in minors, hope that makes sense short hand.

It would help the understandability of your questions and the willingness of other forum members to answer them if you would use typographic devices like punctuation or even paragraphs.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You can't short-cut Barry's teaching. If you're serious about learning the Barry Harris method to bebop lines and sophisticated harmony invest in Howard Rees' workshop videos.

It will amount to about $300 dollars and a lifetime of dedication.

Your choice.


Don't skip the singers video, some of the most useful rhythmic information is found there.

Or at least work your way through at least the first fifty or so videos on Chris Parks YT channel "Things I Learned From Barry Harris".

The DVDs are of course highly recommended as well as Alan's book "The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar" (same publisher, Howard Rees) and Roni Ben-Hur's "Chordability" and "Talk Jazz".

The singers DVD I do not know yet, might become a X-mas gift to myself.

[bediles]

Bring the shade.

I just feel like the BH crew is primarily made up of well meaning individuals that shit on the "conventional" way of doing things (whatever that means) without having experienced any other methods. Like inner voice movement never existed before the BH concept of "movement" or that the half-step rules are some silver bebop bullet. It's a bit culty.

I see the improv side of the method as a way to potentially simplify (depends on your current conception), make the most out of five scales and to codify some basic bebop language (the second aspect not too dissimilar from David Baker). As far as the scale outline exercises, seems like Bergonzi to me, stuff for intermediate levels to get their instrument together. I do think the harmonic side is cool, which at first I thought was basic Glen Miller arranging methodology but has some fun sounds, especially for stepwise melodies when you get into borrowing embelishments. The BH crew bug me with this side of things too, like the world has not heard of a diminished major seventh.

Good luck with the deep dive.

[A. Kingstone]

I just feel like the BH crew is primarily made up of well meaning individuals that shit on the "conventional" way of doing things (whatever that means) without having experienced any other methods..................... The BH crew bug me with this side of things too sometimes thinking the world has not heard of a diminished major seventh.

Good luck with the deep dive.

I suppose I'm a part of 'the crew' yet I've never heard of a diminished major seventh. Barry never referred to one in the 35 years I spent with him.

You from Toronto I suspect you went to a Rees workshop and didn't like it. If you didn't go to a Rees workshop where did you learn that we are a 'cult' and resistance is futile?

[pamosmusic]

Well that was spicy.

[AllanAllen]

Or at least work your way through at least the first fifty or so videos on Chris Parks YT channel "Things I Learned From Barry Harris".

The DVDs are of course highly recommended as well as Alan's book "The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar" (same publisher, Howard Rees) and Roni Ben-Hur's "Chordability" and "Talk Jazz".

The singers DVD I do not know yet, might become a X-mas gift to myself.

Do you know the guy you quoted is Alan Kingstone? I have his book but it’s too… abstract for me? It’s a me problem. I can work through chords and scales but I need to get them into tunes or they go out the window. It’s probably too much too soon for me too.

I still feel like I can get more mileage subbing Bm7b5 for G7. I’m not bored of vanilla yet, if that makes sense.

I enjoyed playing the 6th chord inversions with diminished chords between them but I wasn’t able to cram them into my repertoire, yet.

So much to learn, so little time.

[pamosmusic]

I still feel like I can get more mileage subbing Bm7b5 for G7. I’m not bored of vanilla yet, if that makes sense.

Vanilla is delicious.

But for real … a more complete answer to the question I was asked earlier would include that the thing that I find most interesting about Barry Harris (so far) isn’t that any of the material is new, because why would it be. It’s the pedagogy. The way he gets tons of flexibility out of fairly simple tools.

Which is all to say that, whenever you venture back into the BH junk, that Bm7b5 for G7 will not have been in vain.

(though you won’t be able to call it a Bm7b5, but I digress)

[AllanAllen]

Vanilla is delicious.

But for real … a more complete answer to the question I was asked earlier would include that the thing that I find most interesting about Barry Harris (so far) isn’t that any of the material is new, because why would it be. It’s the pedagogy. The way he gets tons of flexibility out of fairly simple tools.

Which is all to say that, whenever you venture back into the BH junk, that Bm7b5 for G7 will not have been in vain.

(though you won’t be able to call it a Bm7b5, but I digress)

Well, in my head it’s the T Bone Walker 7th. Which is probably even farther from whatever BH calls it.

[bediles]

I suppose I'm a part of 'the crew' yet I've never heard of a diminished major seventh. Barry never referred to one in the 35 years I spent with him.

You from Toronto I suspect you went to a Rees workshop and didn't like it. If you didn't go to a Rees workshop where did you learn that we are a 'cult' and resistance is futile?

Didn't you see the guy handing out business cards promising salvation? The workshop was at Younge and Dundas Square, right?

Just a vibe I've gotten from the internet folks and personal experience meeting people who went to those classes.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I just feel like the BH crew is primarily made up of well meaning individuals that shit on the "conventional" way of doing things (whatever that means) without having experienced any other methods. Like inner voice movement never existed before the BH concept of "movement" or that the half-step rules are some silver bebop bullet. It's a bit culty.

I see the improv side of the method as a way to potentially simplify and made the most out of five scales and to codify some basic bebop language (the second aspect not too dissimilar from David Baker). As far as the scale outline exercises, seems like Bergonzi to me, stuff for intermediate levels to get their instrument together. I do think the harmonic side is cool, which at first I thought was basic Glen Miller arranging methodology but has some fun sounds, especially for stepwise melodies. The BH crew bug me with this side of things too sometimes thinking the world has not heard of a diminished major seventh.

Good luck with the deep dive.

Just to name a few people who went to study with BH, some for longer, some at least for some lessons:

Charles McPherson, Paul Chambers, Yusef Lateef, Wendell Harrison, John Henderson, James Jamerson, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Emmet Cohen and for guitarists Roni Ben-Hur and Pasquale Grasso. (I probably forgot some important ones, those are those that immediately entered my mind.)

This must really be an un-conventional BS method!1!!

And no one did want to play with that poor funny guy ...

Barry Harris - Wikipedia

And speaking for myself: First of all I have a experience of listening to jazz of ca. 35 years and I have trained my ears rather well in that time.

And I have experience in other methods.I was lucky that Werner Pöhlert's teachings ("Grundlagenharmonik", "Basic Harmony") saved me from getting deeper into the academic chord scale theory already in the early 90ies. Discovering Barry's methods about five years ago when deciding to finally get serious with playing jazz was like discovering missing links for me.

Around 1990 I had found out that I liked everything with the names Hank Jones and Tommy Flanagan on it. And now there was a rather simple method to achieve those sounds! (And later I found out that Barry had grown up and learned from and with those guys.)

Also the concept of practicing chord tones on strong beats was, while absolutely logical, totally new to me.

No one (but superficial critics) ever claimed that Barry invented all this. Barry was often talking about Chopin regarding the six diminished scales! He studied existing things and codified them in a easily comprehensible way.

And (it's being mentioned just a few posts above): Barry's scale outlines are mainly a listening exercise -- not a technical one.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Do you know the guy you quoted is Alan Kingstone? I have his book but it’s too… abstract for me? It’s a me problem. I can work through chords and scales but I need to get them into tunes or they go out the window. It’s probably too much too soon for me too.

I still feel like I can get more mileage subbing Bm7b5 for G7. I’m not bored of vanilla yet, if that makes sense.

I enjoyed playing the 6th chord inversions with diminished chords between them but I wasn’t able to cram them into my repertoire, yet.

So much to learn, so little time.

Of course I know that it is Alan Kingstone.

First of all I would practice the two six diminished scales (major and minor), the seventh diminished scale and the seventh flat five diminished scale as drop 2 voicings on all three possible string groups (1-2-3-4, 2-3-4-5 and 3-4-5-6, the latter not so inportant and less good sounding the lower you go) to get the sound into your ear. Sing the root notes along at the lowest register your voice has. That is vanilla.

Now learn to superimpose those chord scales. Take e.g. Cm6 + Do. The diminished is sort of a dominant to the Cmin chord, a rootless G7/b9. Over a Cm6 (might be a minor tonic or subdominant) they are vanilla.

But a Cm6 is also a rootless F7/9. So you can superimpose Cm6 + Do over a a F7. You are basically already doing this as you describe above, you would use Am7b5 (inversion of Cm6) over F7. But now you have a passing chord to use between inversions of Cm6 aka Am7b5.

Now try this on a quick change blues in C. Blues is always a good vehicle to try out substitutions. Go up (or down) inversions (use quarters notes here for simplicity) C7 (or C6 for a different color) -> Do -> C7 (resp. C6) -> Do; now in the scond bar (quick change) play over the F7: Cm6 -> Do -> Cm6 -> Do; third bar back to C7 resp. C6. Sing the roots C and F along. You for sure no that sound. You use the same diminished passing chord and for the main chords you only change one or two notes chromatically. Already less vanilla.

You can use the Cm6 + Do also over an altered B7 (F7 being the tritone sub of B7) leading to E or Emin. Much less vanilla ...

Im am planning to start a Substack blog soon to document my jazz journey for myself and others and explain such things in more detail with notation and listening examples. Recently I am working on mixing up sixth/seventh diminished scales with tritone subs. That's when you really get beyond vanilla.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] The way he gets tons of flexibility out of fairly simple tools. [...]

Guitarist Russ DeFilippis who had been (among other things) George Benson's assistant for years quotes his former employer*) as repeatedly saying something in the vein of:

"My pIaying may sound complicated but my thinking behind it is simple."

That opened my eyes a lot.


*) GB is not a BH student, just to clarify that.

[Uffe Steen]

For the 6th dim stuff. In short, it's used to create movement over static chord voicings, find alternative ways to conceptualize tension tones and to create non-standard chord voicings that sound great (in a modern old fashioned kinda way). And of course it's adding V chords for each chord.

There's a whole toolkit that comes along with these scales of chords (sounds like you're already working on some of them)

3rds, 6ths, 10ths, 3 note chords, 4 note chords, different drop voicings, oblique motion with two voices, contrary motion with two voices, contrary motion filling in the chord (single note, diad, triad, shell, Sim shearing, drop 2, drop and, drop 2 and 4, double octave chord)

At least for melody harmonization, held notes or stepwise motion are the best applications and filling in btw the melody. I don't think you really use this stuff for an entire tune, more of a technique to add to your toolkit (maybe only 70%?). Also, since there's some subbing here (6th on 5th, playing maj6 over all three chord qualities) pianists are usually playing the roots of the original chords so you don't lose the plot... harder on guitar.

I seem to only be posting youtube vids lately, but this one covers a lot of the stuff in AK's book and has some application examples too:

Quite a lot of talk is that this is some holy grail or whatever. I think those people just like to smell each other's farts.

I recommend that video, too

[Christian Miller]

I suppose I'm a part of 'the crew' yet I've never heard of a diminished major seventh. Barry never referred to one in the 35 years I spent with him.

You from Toronto I suspect you went to a Rees workshop and didn't like it. If you didn't go to a Rees workshop where did you learn that we are a 'cult' and resistance is futile?

We am the hivemind

[Christian Miller]

Vanilla is delicious.

But for real … a more complete answer to the question I was asked earlier would include that the thing that I find most interesting about Barry Harris (so far) isn’t that any of the material is new, because why would it be. It’s the pedagogy. The way he gets tons of flexibility out of fairly simple tools.

Which is all to say that, whenever you venture back into the BH junk, that Bm7b5 for G7 will not have been in vain.

(though you won’t be able to call it a Bm7b5, but I digress)

m7b5 ain’t a thing

[Christian Miller]

Well, in my head it’s the T Bone Walker 7th. Which is probably even farther from whatever BH calls it.

yeah I’ve heard people say that. Lester used it as well. and of course T bones old playing partner Charlie christian

[Christian Miller]

I just feel like the BH crew is primarily made up of well meaning individuals that shit on the "conventional" way of doing things (whatever that means) without having experienced any other methods. Like inner voice movement never existed before the BH concept of "movement" or that the half-step rules are some silver bebop bullet. It's a bit culty.

I see the improv side of the method as a way to potentially simplify (depends on your current conception), make the most out of five scales and to codify some basic bebop language (the second aspect not too dissimilar from David Baker). As far as the scale outline exercises, seems like Bergonzi to me, stuff for intermediate levels to get their instrument together. I do think the harmonic side is cool, which at first I thought was basic Glen Miller arranging methodology but has some fun sounds, especially for stepwise melodies when you get into borrowing embelishments. The BH crew bug me with this side of things too, like the world has not heard of a diminished major seventh.

Good luck with the deep dive.

I spent about twenty years trying to learn to play jazz the shit way, and then I saw the light. Hallelujah!

Well I’m half joking?

SERIOUSLY - I think Joel summed it up well elsewhere. Many musos have taken what they need from Barry, and not necessarily hung around to learn everything. Fwiw I think that’s what I’ve done myself. But I would say if there’s a better way to go from scales to real jazz language I don’t know what it is. You are right that Baker has some similarities, but I would say that Barry’s teaching system has some clear advantages to the student in the way it is organised and is more open ended.

It’s thanks to this teaching approach working on relatively small amount of practical info that I can say with realistic confidence - yes I can play bop. I mean I’m not Pasquale Grasso obviously, but I’m very comfortable at least in that sort of playing situation that can intimidate many players. So I would recommend if that’s something you feel that you want and need to get together and emphasise that it is learnable.

I think if you want to learn straightahead jazz or bop chord scale theory is somewhere between a total waste of time and slightly helpful sometimes - it’s descriptive of small amount of stuff that could also be understood in a different way.

(It’s certainly not what I would start with day one, let me put it that way.)

If you want to learn post-Berklee jazz (why do people never call it that haha) I think a thorough understanding of it is necessary. People like Kurt Rosenwinkel very much apply CST quite transparently.

(Post bop OTOH is an interesting sort of transition, where a lot of chord scale theory is kind of being worked out and there are big variations between players. You also have other historical approaches like Tristano and Russell.)

For the former II V licks and language will get you a long way - and that’s what I began doing in earnest when I realised how effective it was. It’s taught everywhere including Berklee

what Barry does is allow you to go beyond licks. But it was transcribing bebop that led me there. I was actually doing more the Tristano* thing before, but gravitated towards Barry. If I’d transcribed different stuff I may have gone on a different direction. For instance atm I’m transcribing Holdsworth and it’s perverse not to use chord scale theory for that because he told us that’s how he did it (although his approach has somethings strikingly in common with Barry’s…)

Use the best tools you can find for the job. A job that needs a wrench will not suit a hammer etc.

PS: in the Classical theory world there’s a similar debate around Roman numerals and functional analysis as opposed to historical figured bass and so on. You get your hardcore people on both sides but most sensible people seem to know both and use whatever seems apt. Im gravitating towards that more myself… I used to be more partisan.

*another historical scale based approach. From what I’ve been able to find out I credit Tristano with the theoretical formulation of melodic minor harmony in the late 40s btw. Kurt is apparently a huge Tristano fan, unlike Elvis or Jimmy Raney.

[Christian Miller]

BTW IIRC according to Rees Barry’s improv methodology goes back a lot further than the scale of chords stuff. So when I say historical, I mean the stuff he was presumably working through when he was back in Detroit and shared with Paul Chambers, James Jamerson, Joe Henderson (even Trane) etc etc

[pamosmusic]

Guitarist Russ DeFilippis who had been (among other things) George Benson's assistant for years quotes his former employer*) as repeatedly saying something in the vein of:

"My pIaying may sound complicated but my thinking behind it is simple."

That opened my eyes a lot.


*) GB is not a BH student, just to clarify that.

Pete Bernstein — “I try never to play anything hard.”

[AllanAllen]

*another historical scale based approach. From what I’ve been able to find out I credit Tristano with the theoretical formulation of melodic minor harmony in the late 40s btw. Kurt is apparently a huge Tristano fan, unlike Elvis or Jimmy Raney.

I had to look that one up. Elvis is the best