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Thank you. That helped tons!
Originally Posted by pcjazz
But, dense as I am about these things, I still am not sure about the scales to run for scale practice.
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12-04-2022 05:37 PM
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Should be a Dm6 also, not Dm7. Simplify last two to G7 Originally Posted by pcjazz
All scales up and down
C major
G7 up and then down to the third of E7
C7 up and then down to the third of A7
Dm6-dim up and down
G7 up and then down to the third of E7
and then hmmm
maybe D7 up and down twice
or
Am6-dim up and down
D7 up and down
and then
G7 up and down
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Thanks! That's what I was wondering. So what is the basic rule here? The upper sister for any secondary dominants? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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im treating the E7 and A7 like minor ii vs Originally Posted by rlrhett
Bm7b5 E7
Bm7b5 relates to G7
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
That's interesting. Did you learn that from Barry or Howard or elsewhere PC?
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Huh. I remember someone--neither you nor me--asking Barry at one of the workshops how he would outline All Of Me and Barry saying something like "that's an interesting tune" before moving on to a different topic. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
The changes I gave seem to be standard in half a dozen or so charts, except for the original Real Book which gives two bars of Dm where the others give two bars of Dm7. The melody in those two Dm7 bars is G (two beats) F (six beats) so it might better be reharmonized as G7 than as Dm6 (but surely not F6 in the first half of the tune, although that might work in the second half). The big difference among versions occurs after the Dm7 bars in the second half, which are followed by a bar of F (almost universally) and then a bar of Fm which is often replaced by a diminished chord. IV to iv seems to be the original change, and a familiar one to Barry students.
But all the charts agree that it is a 32 bar tune, if that's what you found interesting.
What's your take on this interesting tune?
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The doubling of the bars PC.
Barry's Line Outline method has always been tough for me to interpret beyond the workshops.
I never had trouble playing All Of Me but I never blew anything worthwhile.
PS: Did you record the shop or do you remember that?
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Agreed, me too. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
I posted from memory. It could have been one of the Zoom workshop recordings, which I am slowly and laboriously trying to index.
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Sorry to jump in, and possibly repeat some research you have already done (but this might be helpful to someone who knows?). Originally Posted by pcjazz
I take this to be a reasonably vanilla version
So here we have what I hear as a straight "Dm" chord (transposing to C from Eb) and I really hear it I must say as a tonic Dm secondary key centre, and not as a predominant function chord (i.e. Dm6-dim rather than G7 scale outline-wise). The G-F appogiatura is not unusual on a tonic function minor, and the melodic Bb on the A7 really gives that sense of moving to Dm for that bar. Billie's version has "Dm-A7-Dm" which tends to reinforce the tonic minor feeling on that IIm chord.
Without checking the sheet music myself I agree that it appears Fm was the original chord, which is interesting, cos I seem to recall a Dennis Chang stream where he was adamant it was diminished here and to my shame I took his word for it lol. Even that harmonic loose cannon, Django, plays minor here.
Incidentally, the Real Book eratta also 'corrects' the printed Fm to F#o7 IIRC.
In fact the Paul Whiteman changes are not far from the Real Book 5th Ed ones as printed, although the last turnaround seems to my ears more like Ebo7 Dm7 Fm C to me, which is pretty.
However this is obviously a Barry Harris thread, and that's not to say that's anything like how Barry played it. For example, Barry obviously didn't play the original changes to Indiana, for instance, but rather the Bud 'Donna Lee' version.
Aggravatingly, I did actually do this tune with Barry once (he said he used to think it was a corny tune but it had grown on him), but unhelpfully, I can't really recall what he said about it. That said, I think I would have remembered if it differed very much from what I would usually do.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-06-2022 at 06:00 AM.
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Thanks for jumping in, Christian. A minor point (pun intended) but here’s what Denis wrote in the blog post you mentioned:
“In the song All Of Me, many players play F to F#dim7, when the original chords are F to Fm. Interestingly enough, however, both chord progressions fit the melody. It’s always fun witnessing a jam session with more than one rhythm guitar player and hearing both changes being played at the same time. Most of the time, the two or more rhythm players are completely oblivious to the clash. I always wonder if they’re even listening!
“While on the topic of All Of Me, the last II V I is not a regular II V I; The II chord is borrowed from the parallel minor tonality: Dm7b5. I’m aware of this, but I personally, still play a regular Dm7, like most jazz musicians. It’s just good to research, to pay attention, and to be aware.”
When I played the song with him at a lesson, Denis played the F#dim change and when I asked him about the blog post he replied that he preferred it to the original Fm. As you might say, it’s jazz innit?
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Before I recognised the separate harmonic and melodic aspects of Barry's teaching I learned to single note the Four Note Chords of the Sixth Diminished & Minor Sixth Diminished Scales.
It never hurt my playing.
Up 6th / Up dim
Down 6th / Down dim
Up 6th / Down dim
Down 6th / Up dim
Vertically/Horizontally
Maybe not so separate after all.
Alan
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Nice to see this thread gain traction again. I realized the harmonic possibilities and chord solo and polyphonic moments of BH are far more important to me than his rules for lines.
Still working diligently on my 8 string. It’s hard! Anyway, here’s the drop 2 and drop 3s across and up the neck, per string set. A slash “/“ means either or. Relearning and re-mapping it for my new instrument, Once this gets fully internalized and second nature on the 8 string, like I can do it in my sleep, I feel like the sky’s the limit.
The premise is, of course, one should be free to go across the neck and up and down the neck, interchangeably.
DROP 2
1563=5136-1563-5136
3615-6351-3615-6351
5136-1563-5136-1563
6351-3615-6351-3615
DROP 3
1635 3156/5361 6513/1635
3156 5361/6513 1635/3156
5361 6513/1635 3156/5361
6513 1635/3156 5361/6513
Obviously, for 6 string guitars, disregard the last column for each. It only applies to the 8 string.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
What Navdeep said.
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
TBF I know what he means, esp. at gypsy jazz jam sessions tbf - rhythms players often get 'locked in' with shapes. One reason I don't like playing gypsy jazz TBH.
But here's the thing- there's plenty of examples from the recordings of exactly this happening; for instance on Hot Fives and Sevens recordings. Gunther Schuller regarded these notes as 'mistakes', Ethan Iverson completely disagrees, and I tend to agree with him. Jazz isn't meant to be correct - different versions of the changes can coexist on top of each other. it's part of what makes jazz jazz, and the route back to the I from IV is a classic place to express this layering up. I like to do it too.
Here's my favourite example from Wynton Marsalis playing quite pointedly expressing #IVo7 on IVm6. Has to be on purpose probably cos he heard Louis doing it.
Indeed“While on the topic of All Of Me, the last II V I is not a regular II V I; The II chord is borrowed from the parallel minor tonality: Dm7b5. I’m aware of this, but I personally, still play a regular Dm7, like most jazz musicians. It’s just good to research, to pay attention, and to be aware.”
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Barry Harris Scale of Chords: BORROWING-the 6th chord and its diminished borrow from each other in the ALTO or SOPRANO or TENOR or BASS voices
Instead of C6 dim scale (C6 inversions and D diminished): CEGA and BDFAb
BORROWING from the ALTO VOICE
C C-G-B-E B is borrowed from D diminished
D D-Ab-C-F C is borrowed from CM6
E E-A-D-G D is borrowed from D Diminished
F F-B-E-Ab E is borrowed from C6
G G-C-F-A F is borrowed from D diminished
Ab Ab-D-G-B G is borrowed from C6
A A-E-Ab-C Ab is borrowed from D diminished
B B-F-A-D A is borrowed from C6
BORROWING from the SOPRANO VOICE
C C-G-A-F F is borrowed from Diminished (skip the G, too D D-Ab-B-G G is borrowed from the C6
E E-A-C-Ab Ab is borrowed from D diminished
F F-B-D-A A is borrowed from C6
G G-C-E-B B is borrowed from D diminished
Ab Ab-D-F-C C is borrowed from C6
A A-E-G-D D is borrowed from D diminished
B B-F-A-E E is borrowed from C6
BORROWING from the TENOR VOICE
C C-Ab-A-E Ab is borrowed from D diminished
D D-A-B-F A is borrowed from C6
E E-B-C-G B is borrowed from D diminished
F F-C-D-Ab C is borrowed from C6
G G-D-E-A D is borrowed from D diminished
Ab Ab-E-F-B E is borrowed from C6
A A-F-G-C F is borrowed from D diminished
B B-G-Ab-D G is borrowed from C6
BORROWING from the BASS VOICE
C D-G-A-E D is borrowed from D diminished
D E-Ab-B-F E is borrowed from C6
E F-A-C-G F is borrowed from D diminished
F G-B-D-Ab G is borrowed from C6
G Ab-C-E-A Ab is borrowed from D diminished
Ab A-D-F-B A is borrowed from C6
A B-E-G-C B is borrowed from D diminished
B C-F-Ab-D C is borrowed from C6
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Sure, Navdeep, but you can borrow from below as well as from above — and more than one voice at a time as well.
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Yeah, if you take each four note chord and move each constituent voice either up or down to the next note in the scale (bass-tenor-alto-soprano in Barry’s lexicon), you get 8 different chord movements for each C6 inversion and associated diminished. Originally Posted by pcjazz
MUSIC IS MOVEMENT, INDEED.
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I’m quite liking a thing where you plonk down a chord voicing and then roll it up or open out using contrary motion.
seems good for being able to ‘randomly access’ contrary motion through the scale of chords
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This is one of many great clips. Quality isn't too good but Bill is so cool. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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As mentioned before here, Floors and Elevators, by Thomas Echols, watch episode 16 of his Labyrinth of Limitations . Basically a systemic way from going from small intervals to wider chords, starting from the scale itself (unison) to thirds and other intervals to triads to all the drop inversions (2, 3, 2 and 4) to octave chords. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Most of his videos he does apply it to tunes, I have found. But I agree with you on working it out for ourselves sticking better. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yeah I deleted my post cos it wasn’t really worth making. Is all cool. Just gotta practice Originally Posted by NSJ
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Wut? Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Do you mean you were practicing outlining chords by doing arpeggios of the maj6 up and the dim down? As in for the first bars of a Bb blues:
Fm6 up
Bbm6 up
Fm6 up/ dim down
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Why not?
I practiced running the fretboard (One scale at a time) and discovered some variations as to Four Note chords:
On Three Strings
2 notes on the top string
2 notes on the middle string
2 notes on the bottom string
On Two Strings
On Four Strings
I mostly use - On Three Strings.
String Sets are adjacent.
Just ran this low to high on acoustic - G6o - I'm very rusty.Last edited by A. Kingstone; 12-13-2022 at 10:01 PM.
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"G7 up and then down to the third of E7
C7 up and then down to the third of A7"
sorry but can you please explain your choices here a little more?
Could one just place E7 over E7 and A7 over A7?
I got a lot out of your video in this thread, thank you.
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