Official Barry Harris Thread

[christianm77]

True.

Although I realised quite recently that it’s actually a way of getting you to play the harmonic minor only as much as is strictly necessary. Which is to say we don’t have to play it at all.

I mean, Barry Harris obviously knows what a harmonic minor scale is - why else would one frame it this way?

A: To maximise the utility of what we have already practiced.

Barry says that it’s better to stay on the Eb7 as much as possible, and in terms of the amount of time one sinks into mastering the dominant scale in his approach, that makes sense. He said it’s harder to use half step rules etc in harmonic minor, and while those rules exists, it’s more likely that one has the half step rules for Eb7 ingrained than for C7b9

he then demonstrated that you don’t need to use the E at all.

So I think the third of the dominant is always kind of optional.

[christianm77]

Here’s my understanding of this

[Squirrel]

Thank's Christianm77! I knew the 3rd and 7th both existed in this paradigm and that they were interchangable, but from my noobishness I hadn't realized:


1. The 3rd and the 7th ALSO provide seamless transitions to the siblings
2. You can stay on the "backdoor dominant" scale all you want coming out of the min-ii-b5 chord and you don't even need to hit the 3rd of the V7 if you don't want to, because you're already on the backdoor dominant!
3. You don't want to get locked into the harmonic minor as a default because you don't want to default in a way that loses out on all those half-step rules and ABCs you've practiced!


BOOM! Mind blown. Ok, and to give back to this forum in some way, since all I've done is take-take-take and perhaps ask helpful questions , here is a context map I've arrived at this morning, for the "tendencies" of substitution situations, split up by home team (consonance V7s) vs. away team (more dissonance in the V7s). I mean, this might not help anyone, lol, since I'm definitely a bit different in how I learn, but I definitely need a map to get started with anything and I like it if the map can have a structure built in for connecting and balancing wavelike motion of consonance and dissonance (that goes for anything in life, lol):


What to Play Where?
(helpful guidelines for me to cultivate a starting point of a tendency; micro-deviations can emerge when I'm wanting more or less consonance/dissonance than the guideline would prescribe)


Harmonic Movement:

• Related dim (on 3rd of V7) movements might be the home team for the minor 2-5
• Tritones minor sounds more away team for the minor 2-5
• V7dim scale: home team on the major 2-5 because of #4 and no b9 in terms of resolving to the I; so pretty, especially for the most saccharine of turn-arounds! (aka "why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?")
• Important minor: away team on the major 2-5 (more voice-leading to the I than V7dim scale because of the 4, b9, and b7)

Dominant Scale Single-Line Melodic Playing

• subbing to the dominant scale a sibling down a 3rd seems most at home in a backdoor V7 situation
• subbing to a dominant scale up a 3rd seems most at home in an unaltered minor ii-V7 situation
• subbing to a dominant a tritone away seems most at home in an altered minor ii-V7 situation

That might all seem a bit pedantic, but trust me, as a left-brained INTP, I need a map of EVERYTHING before I can get myself to start with anything. Once I learn the rules in this way, I can throw away the map and re-join everyone else.

[Petimar]

I haven’t watched much of Chris’s stuff (I probably should), so what I’m saying is what I remember from Barry’s classes; but when he demonstrated the tritone sub, the junction between say G7 and Db7 is the 3rd or 7th.

The reason for this is obvious when you think about it; it allows a smooth transition between the two scales and the added note rules can be preserved seamlessly.

One other thing Barry has talked about in some of the online classes is that notes of G7 chromatically surround notes of Db7 and vice versa. This is a GREAT way of making lines that flow into each other using the tritone. Chris mentions this in some videos as does Isaac.

[christianm77]

One other thing Barry has talked about in some of the online classes is that notes of G7 chromatically surround notes of Db7 and vice versa. This is a GREAT way of making lines that flow into each other using the tritone. Chris mentions this in some videos as does Isaac.

As in

G A B C D E F
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db/B Eb F

Thats a nice point I hadn’t heard. Every note is in fact different apart from the 3rd and 7th. Could you direct me to the relevant video?

[christianm77]

Thank's Christianm77! I knew the 3rd and 7th both existed in this paradigm and that they were interchangable, but from my noobishness I hadn't realized:


1. The 3rd and the 7th ALSO provide seamless transitions to the siblings
2. You can stay on the "backdoor dominant" scale all you want coming out of the min-ii-b5 chord and you don't even need to hit the 3rd of the V7 if you don't want to, because you're already on the backdoor dominant!
3. You don't want to get locked into the harmonic minor as a default because you don't want to default in a way that loses out on all those half-step rules and ABCs you've practiced!


BOOM! Mind blown. Ok, and to give back to this forum in some way, since all I've done is take-take-take and perhaps ask helpful questions , here is a context map I've arrived at this morning, for the "tendencies" of substitution situations, split up by home team (consonance V7s) vs. away team (more dissonance in the V7s). I mean, this might not help anyone, lol, since I'm definitely a bit different in how I learn, but I definitely need a map to get started with anything and I like it if the map can have a structure built in for connecting and balancing wavelike motion of consonance and dissonance (that goes for anything in life, lol):


What to Play Where?
(helpful guidelines for me to cultivate a starting point of a tendency; micro-deviations can emerge when I'm wanting more or less consonance/dissonance than the guideline would prescribe)


Harmonic Movement:

• Related dim (on 3rd of V7) movements might be the home team for the minor 2-5
• Tritones minor sounds more away team for the minor 2-5
• V7dim scale: home team on the major 2-5 because of #4 and no b9 in terms of resolving to the I; so pretty, especially for the most saccharine of turn-arounds! (aka "why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?")
• Important minor: away team on the major 2-5 (more voice-leading to the I than V7dim scale because of the 4, b9, and b7)

Dominant Scale Single-Line Melodic Playing

• subbing to the dominant scale a sibling down a 3rd seems most at home in a backdoor V7 situation
• subbing to a dominant scale up a 3rd seems most at home in an unaltered minor ii-V7 situation
• subbing to a dominant a tritone away seems most at home in an altered minor ii-V7 situation

That might all seem a bit pedantic, but trust me, as a left-brained INTP, I need a map of EVERYTHING before I can get myself to start with anything. Once I learn the rules in this way, I can throw away the map and re-join everyone else.

that’s sounds about it

It’s good for progression in a step by step way. TBH that’s one reason I’m on and off practicing Barry stuff. I can’t do the Chris thing where you methodically go through everything. My brain doesn’t work like that. Rather I like to revisit concepts every so often.

[pcjazz]

As in

G A B C D E F
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db/B Eb F

Thats a nice point I hadn’t heard. Every note is in fact different apart from the 3rd and 7th. Could you direct me to the relevant video?

In F: try descending C7 with one extra note, surround Gb, then continue down Gb7 with one extra note, surround C, down to the third of F. Learned this from Howard Rees years ago.

C B Bb A G F Gb F E Eb Db B C Bb A

[Petimar]

Could you direct me to the relevant video?

This was from one of his Saturday Zoom classes so not available as video now.

[BellJoan]

Hi, I have seen the video Feeling the "and" for a long time and it won me over at that time, I watched and watched it every day for a long time. There is something special about it, it has settled in my heart!

[rlrhett]

Hi, I have seen the video Feeling the "and" for a long time and it won me over at that time, I watched and watched it every day for a long time. There is something special about it, it has settled in my heart!

What video are you referring to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[grahambop]

Possibly this one:

[David B]

Roni Ben-Hur has a new two-part video on 'Embraceable You' available at My Music Masterclass. All of Roni's instructional materials are gold, especially for anyone interested in the BH approach.

Link: Roni Ben-Hur - Inside "Embraceable You" - Masterclass Videos Bundle

Christian and I were at a Peter Bernstein workshop some years ago in which PB said that if you can get comfortable with Embraceable You, you can handle most of the changes and moves you'll encounter in jazz standard repertoire.

[neokruncher]

Hello,

I am trying to develop more bebop style phrasing and have been spending a bunch of time on the BH stuff (mostly through TILFBH youtube channel).

Can someone help me think about how to use the half step rules and chromatic scale most effectively? I am confused as to whether they are completely interchangeable when I want to introduce chromatic lines.

If I arpeggiate up to say the 6th, while descending do I just introduce chromatic notes anywhere (as in scale) or skip the ones as the rules state? I guess the question is why bother with the rules?

[Clint 55]

That Rossano clip was nuts! What a great player, shredding Just one of those things like it was nothing. I liked the 2 feel and making it sound like the 8th notes were 16ths notes. I also liked the phrasing of lines. Really 4 note pattern based but then organized musically.

[Dana]

Hello,

I am trying to develop more bebop style phrasing and have been spending a bunch of time on the BH stuff (mostly through TILFBH youtube channel).

Can someone help me think about how to use the half step rules and chromatic scale most effectively? I am confused as to whether they are completely interchangeable when I want to introduce chromatic lines.

If I arpeggiate up to say the 6th, while descending do I just introduce chromatic notes anywhere (as in scale) or skip the ones as the rules state? I guess the question is why bother with the rules?

When you say 'arpeggiate up to the 6th', I'm going on the assumption you mean going from C major up to the 6th like this: C E G A

According to the BH book I have the rule is, "For 4 note chords follow the rule for the bottom note, with the exception of the root. However, that assumes that you're playing the root up to the 7th, which are both odd numbered notes. In this case, going from the root (odd numbered note) to the 6th (even numbered note) there wouldn't be an exception.

So, arpeggiating from C to A (assuming you're playing four 8th notes and the A is on the upbeat) you'd descend starting on the note G on the downbeat and use either one half step (between 6 & 5) or three half steps (between 3 & 2, 2 & 1, 6 & 5).

That's how I understand it anyway.

[Dioxic]

For those of you that have put a substantial amount of time into the Barry Harris method and utilize it in your playing, do you think it could be adapted for modern tunes? Whether that mean modal playing, or perhaps even just modern vocabulary / harmony more broadly?

[Bilginey]

Hi everybody , may i ask which scale play over diminished chords in barrys aproach? i couldnt find information about this anywhere, thanks.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

As in

G A B C D E F
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db/B Eb F

Thats a nice point I hadn’t heard. Every note is in fact different apart from the 3rd and 7th. Could you direct me to the relevant video?

“Isaac” might be pianist Isaak Raz’ (NYC) YT channel. He tried not to miss any tuesday class in NY after having discovered Barry. You can see him in a lot of videos from those classes close to the piano. Recently Bob Mover seems to be his new mentor.

Isaac Raz - YouTube

I think it was him who somewhere in his channel mentions you could swap notes when going down that harmonic minor line (he doesn’t call it that way) for variation.

E.g. on a one-bar D–7/b5 to G7 instead of playing

Ab - G - F - Eb - D - C - B

you could play e.g.

G - Ab - F - Eb - D - C - B.

You can try to swap other notes as well, only the last note should remain B of course.


Another good Barry Harris based channel is JazzSkills by pianist Shan Verma from London, who was quite close to Barry.

He also speaks a lot about getting from scale practice to little ideas by things like swapping notes or leaving out the first note.


BTW I am wondering why nobody (at least according to this site’s search engine) ever mentioned the YT channel Labyrinth of Limitations by Thomas Echols before. He is a classically trained guitarist who never studied with Barry directly (I think he studies with TILFBH’s Chris Parks, they always comment each others videos). He uses his advanced abilities technique-wise to work out especially Barris harmonic system (e.g. improvising with 6th diminished scales using contrary motion) and he even wrote a software.

The Labyrinth of Limitations - YouTube

Labyrinth of Limitations — Thomas Echols, Guitarist


EDIT: I just realized I answered a rather old post — the information might be useful nonetheless.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Hi everybody , may i ask which scale play over diminished chords in barrys aproach? i couldnt find information about this anywhere, thanks.

It depends on the situation.

For example there are two ways to approach a II chord from the I:

• from below (C – C#o – D–7; C#o is a rootless A7/b9 and also a rootless C7/b9, Eb7/b9, Gb7/b9; Barry’s “family of four dominants”)
• from above (C – Ebo – D–7; Ebo is a chromatic passing chord from C6 to D–7)

Or there is #IVo as passing chord from IV to I (basically the same thing as II from above; F6 is an inversion of D-7 — and vice versa — and F#o is an inversion of Ebo, so F#o is a chromatic passing chord from F6 to C6. Of course there are variations of this, F7 – F#o – C7 in a blues, Fmaj7 – F#o – Cmaj7).

These are the main situations that come to my mind where a diminished chord might be written for a half or a whole bar.

Do you know about Barry’s concept of outlining chord changes with scales?

[Bilginey]

Thanks for your answer. Your answer very revealing // yes i know scale outline concept (min Maj halfdim 7th chords) for chord changes

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Thanks for your answer. Your answer very revealing // yes i know scale outline concept (min Maj halfdim 7th chords) for chord changes

So some examples (when I write C, I mean a major four-note-chord, either Cmaj7 or C6, depending on Taste and especially the melody of the tune):

| C / / / | C#o / / / | D–7 / / / | G7 / / / |

bars 1 and 2: C major scale up to 7th and back to 3rd of A (if only half bar: C major down from 7th to 3rd of A — Barry would call that also playing “the C major scale into the A [dominant] 7th scale”).

Alternatively you could try C major scale up to 7th in bar one and C#diminished scale up to minor 7th of C: C#—D#—E—F#—G—A—Bb. The C# diminished scale has one more note (C) but this way you keep the rhythmic pattern (1&2&3&4 for one bar) for the scale outline. Or you could play the major pattern in bar one up and the diminished pattern in bar down (Bb—A—G—F#—F—D#—C#). The latter way you get a nice voice-leading from B to Bb.

[Barry did not like the whole-half / half-whole nomenclature for dimininished scale. For him a C half-whole diminished scale and a C# whole-half diminished scale was the same (and they are actually the same notes). So for him there are only three diminished scales which are derived from the three families of dominants. A C#o / Eo / Go / Bbo (C# E G Bb) is a rootless C7/b9 / Eb7/b9 / Gb7/b9 / A7/b9, add the possible roots and get C# Eb E Gb G A Bb C — voilà. As there are only three diminished chords — the others are inversions — and three families of four there are only three diminished scales.]

bars 3 and 4: ignore the II chord of a II–V, so G [dominant] 7th scale up to 7th and back down.

I have to stop for now but will continue later.

[Christian Miller]

“Isaac” might be pianist Isaak Raz’ (NYC) YT channel. He tried not to miss any tuesday class in NY after having discovered Barry. You can see him in a lot of videos from those classes close to the piano. Recently Bob Mover seems to be his new mentor.

Isaac Raz - YouTube

I think it was him who somewhere in his channel mentions you could swap notes when going down that harmonic minor line (he doesn’t call it that way) for variation.

E.g. on a one-bar D–7/b5 to G7 instead of playing

Ab - G - F - Eb - D - C - B

you could play e.g.

G - Ab - F - Eb - D - C - B.

You can try to swap other notes as well, only the last note should remain B of course.


Another good Barry Harris based channel is JazzSkills by pianist Shan Verma from London, who was quite close to Barry.

He also speaks a lot about getting from scale practice to little ideas by things like swapping notes or leaving out the first note.


BTW I am wondering why nobody (at least according to this site’s search engine) ever mentioned the YT channel Labyrinth of Limitations by Thomas Echols before. He is a classically trained guitarist who never studied with Barry directly (I think he studies with TILFBH’s Chris Parks, they always comment each others videos). He uses his advanced abilities technique-wise to work out especially Barris harmonic system (e.g. improvising with 6th diminished scales using contrary motion) and he even wrote a software.

The Labyrinth of Limitations - YouTube

Labyrinth of Limitations — Thomas Echols, Guitarist


EDIT: I just realized I answered a rather old post — the information might be useful nonetheless.

Thanks for the answer…. :-) forgotten I posted that! Very good thing to practice

I used to run into Shan at the London BH workshops, I certainly remember he was one of the main guys - cool to know he’s YouTubing.

[Bilginey]

So some examples (when I write C, I mean a major four-note-chord, either Cmaj7 or C6, depending on Taste and especially the melody of the tune):

| C / / / | C#o / / / | D–7 / / / | G7 / / / |

bars 1 and 2: C major scale up to 7th and back to 3rd of A (if only half bar: C major down from 7th to 3rd of A — Barry would call that also playing “the C major scale into the A [dominant] 7th scale”).

Alternatively you could try C major scale up to 7th in bar one and C#diminished scale up to minor 7th of C: C#—D#—E—F#—G—A—Bb. The C# diminished scale has one more note (C) but this way you keep the rhythmic pattern (1&2&3&4 for one bar) for the scale outline. Or you could play the major pattern in bar one up and the diminished pattern in bar down (Bb—A—G—F#—F—D#—C#). The latter way you get a nice voice-leading from B to Bb.

[Barry did not like the whole-half / half-whole nomenclature for dimininished scale. For him a C half-whole diminished scale and a C# whole-half diminished scale was the same (and they are actually the same notes). So for him there are only three diminished scales which are derived from the three families of dominants. A C#o / Eo / Go / Bbo (C# E G Bb) is a rootless C7/b9 / Eb7/b9 / Gb7/b9 / A7/b9, add the possible roots and get C# Eb E Gb G A Bb C — voilà. As there are only three diminished chords — the others are inversions — and three families of four there are only three diminished scales.]

bars 3 and 4: ignore the II chord of a II–V, so G [dominant] 7th scale up to 7th and back down.

I have to stop for now but will continue later.

thanks again for answers and explanations. If it is possible can u explain these scale outlines examples , much appriciate.

(All the things you are)
Ab Maj7 | Bdim7 | Bb min7

Scale outline (down) for;
B dim7 : Ab G F Eb Db C B

(Indiana)
Dm | Ab dim | F maj7 D7

Scale outline (up) for;
Ab dim : Ab A B C D E F

[pcjazz]

thanks again for answers and explanations. If it is possible can u explain these scale outlines examples , much appriciate.

(All the things you are)
Ab Maj7 | Bdim7 | Bb min7

Scale outline (down) for;
B dim7 : Ab G F Eb Db C B

(Indiana)
Dm | Ab dim | F maj7 D7

Scale outline (up) for;
Ab dim : Ab A B C D E F

The diminished scales are octatonic, that is they have 8 notes, not 7.

[Bilginey]

The diminished scales are octatonic, that is they have 8 notes, not 7.

Thanks, i know but they are written like this in exercises (barry harris workshop doc.)