Official Barry Harris Thread

[rintincop]

Wouldn’t the 7 b7 #5 6 line place the b7 on the beat? If you’re thinking C6 that may not be what you’d want. I usually play that line as
7 5 #5 6

Yes, C7 would be different than C6
(see below)

[rintincop]

For Dominant, the 7th should be on the beat. Maybe revise. For the major scale the 7th is on the off beat.

[PMB]

Of course, too early in the morning here! Let me have another crack at it and I'll repost.

[rintincop]

updated, see below

[rintincop]

see below

[PMB]

This should work for building up a descending dominant line:

[rintincop]

Your 8 7 and 6 phrases all target 6 on a downbeat, the idea was to have 6 on an upbeat for C7 (chord tones on the beat) Your triplet figure would for 8 and even 6, but not b7. I would revise.

[PMB]

Ok, but your '7' phrase over C6 has the 7th off the beat and b7 on the beat. Similarly, the '6' phrase has its major 3rd placed off the beat. Maybe there's a reason that Barry only extended these to the 5th degree...

Btw, while I can see its value as an exercise, BH and Parker place the 6th on the beat all the time. The bebop cliche 8-7b7-9-6-5 is an obvious example.

[rintincop]

Good points.
5432 all keep the chord tones, 135, on the beat.
I think we have 2 cases for 6 , one when it’s a chord tone of a tonic 6th chord and thus on the beat (C6 chord) . And a second case when it’s a passing tone of a dominant scale, thus the 7th is on the beat instead of the 6.

[setemupjoe]

For what it's worth here are the lines I've used for years over C6 and C7 to extend Barry Harris' 5 4 3 2 lines. To keep the concept intact for the C6 line it would be
8 7 6 b6
and for C7 it would be
8 7 b7 6

We need to include the passing notes as well. The b6 and b7 lines of course begin off the beat.

[rintincop]

Excellent, Mark. I love the phrases you’ve come up with.
I’m always searching for alternative 6 phrases for C6. The one we have in your example tends to deemphasize the C6 chord outline and instead emphasizes the V of C6 . Nothing wrong with that of course. However, an alternative phrase like 6 1 3 b6 #4 5 strongly emphasizes the C6 chord in my hearing, and which you did for 6 in your C7 phrase. Remember, in 5432, the 5 3 and 2 phrases serve to outline the chord of the moment and the 2 and 4 phrases serve to momentarily outline the V7 of chord of the moment.

Searching thru the Parker solos, it’s hard to find a redundant 6 phrase. It looks to me as if Parker mostly applied the half step rule or an enclosure to arrive at the 5th on the beat.

[setemupjoe]

Excellent, Mark. I love the phrases you’ve come up with.
I’m always searching for alternative 6 phrases for C6. The one we have in your example tends to deemphasize the C6 chord outline and instead emphasizes the V of C6 . Nothing wrong with that of course. However, an alternative phrase like 6 3 4 #4 5 strongly emphasizes the C6 chord in my hearing, and which you did for 6 in your C7 phrase. Remember, in 5432, the 5 3 and 2 phrases serve to outline the chord of the moment and the 2 and 4 phrases serve to momentarily outline the V7 of chord of the moment. Thus, I like my 6 phrase to outline C6 ( something like 6 3 4 #4 5), rather than 6 2 4 b6 (a V Of the chord type outline). Make sense?

Searching thru the Parker solos, it’s hard to find a redundant 6 phrase. It looks to me as if Parker mostly applied the half step rule or an enclosure to arrive at the 5th on the beat.

Good point. I would argue that the 3 line is actually outlining the V of the chord. With C6 it plays the E, then the G,B and landing on the D. Hence a Gmajor triad over C6. But I do understand it's just a valid to hear the G and B as the 5th and 7th.

As I sought to mirror the movements of the 5 4 3 2 into the 8 7 6 b6 the line naturally fell into the V of C6. That's the way I hear the phrase both in 5 4 3 2 and 8 7 6 b6. It sounds like the C6 going to G7 and resolving back to C6 just the way we do it when we're moving the chords through the scale C6, Ddim7, C6/E, Fdim7 etc.

But I do take your point of strong beat phrase and weak beat phrase outlining the I or the V. I guess we have to find what clicks for us and run with that.

[rintincop]

I agree , I too would argue both ways that the 3 phrase is outlining the V, and its outlining the 5th and the 7th of C major 7.
"To V, or not to V, that is the question". Both impressions are fine.

Think about the 3 phrase when it's C-7 : b3 5 b7 2
That I definatly hear as C-7 chord tones and not a G7 outline.

[setemupjoe]

I agree , I too would argue both ways that the 3 phrase is outlining the V, and its outlining the 5th and the 7th of C major 7.
"To V, or not to V, that is the question". Both impressions are fine.

Think about the 3 phrase when it's C-7 : b3 5 b7 2
That I definatly hear as C-7 chord tones and not a G7 outline.

For C-7 I’d use the Eb6 line seeing they’re the same chord.

[rintincop]

For C-7 I’d use the Eb6 line seeing they’re the same chord.

What phrase notes would you play from the note Eb when the chord is C-7 ?
Eb F# G D (corrected) would be nice. That's your 8 phrase in Eb. It's what I do too, and our 7 phrases are the same too (triple enclosure)
But how about from the note C over a C-7? That would be your 6 phrase in Eb , I find that one problematic over C-7.

[setemupjoe]

What phrase notes would you play from the note Eb when the chord is C-7 ?
Eb F# G B Bb would be nice. That's your 8 phrase in Eb.
But how about from the note C ? That would be your 6 phrase in Eb , I think that might benefit from a revision, right?

Eb F# G D. I think you did a typo above.

I’m happy with the 6 phrase as it outlines the G7-9 pushing back into the C-7 which is pleasing to my ear.
C F Ab B

[rintincop]

(yes, corrected my typo above, Eb F# G D, thanks)

By the way , a good tester of a 6 phrase is to embellish the opening melody note of "Skylark",
as does "Meditation". Mack The Knife targets 6 a lot too.
In C, I would play A E F F# to G

[rintincop]

Updated the 876 phrases: Chord tones are on the beat and they trigger partial arpeggio embellishments. Non chord tones are placed on off beats and are triple enclosure embellishments (triple enclosure is in the add 3 half steps rule realm) . Thus arpeggios and triple enclosures alternate (as 5432 phrases do). The half step rule is included (b6 on Tonic scale, natural 7 for Dominant scale) . These play as a combination phrase very smoothly and lead right into the 5432 combination phrase.

[Petimar]

Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?

[rlrhett]

Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?

Thanks!

I am no Barry Harris scholar, and to be honest I’ve been more focused on his harmony theory (as initially presented to me in Alan’s book). But you’ve just put into one short paragraph exactly what I’ve found myself doing to incorporate “that sound” into my single line Improvisation. Seeing it written out gives me a little more clarity about my practice.


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[christianm77]

Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?

Yeah I think it was transcription (I hate that term as writing it down is not mandatory or even terribly important to the process, anyway) which drew me into Barry's stuff again. I was aware of it before, but it always seemed a bit pedantic and dogmatic to me. Then I realised its power to encapsulate what I was finding in Bird and Bud and I went down the rabbit hole...

[Kommetjie]

omg I just wrote a whole 3rd part to end the overview of the ABCs and I lost the friggin thing.

oh well. I look forward to hearing what Mark thinks and seeing David's lesson

I've copied and filed ABCs Parts 1 and 2 . . . could you take it to the Coda, please?

[Petimar]

One thing I notice is there is not a lot of material in the BH books or much in videos anywhere of what Barry uses to solo on tonic minor chords.

Minor scale half step rules Book 1 pg 16
Minor 5432 Book 1 Pg 26
Minor 6th diminished scale Book 1 pg 50
Harmonic minor half steps book 2 pg 30

Chris covers a bit in his videos, but just kind of highlights a few things.

Anybody who has been to Barrys workshops want to say if there is other stuff I'm not mentioning here?

[rintincop]

I think it’s about the same principles as applied to major tonics.

The big difference being the minor 3rd.
Pick the 6th and 7th degrees you like for various situations. There are only four minor scales and the variations between of lies among the two possible types of 6ths and 7ths.

[Petimar]

Moving Barry's 5 4 3 2 ideas to minor don't seem to be as cool to my ear due to the flat 3 removing the chromatic cool of the 4 line. However...

I just transcribed a tonic minor Parker phrase (first 7 notes of measure 1 below). When paired with Barry's minor 5 and 3, it forms a very cool phrase like Barry's major 5 4 3.