Official Barry Harris Thread

[Tal_175]

I have a question about (one aspect of) BH view of dominant-diminished relationship.

Let's take A7 as our dominant chord.
One of the diminished chords associated with A7 is Bb diminished (ie Bb, Db, E, G diminished chords). This is really a substitute for A7b9.
On the other hand we also got the diminished related to C#min7b5 (substitute for A9). That chord is C diminished (C, Eb, Gb, A diminished chords). This chord actually is not a substitute for A7 but it resolves to C#min7b5 (and therefore to A7 to some extend).

So to summarize there are two diminished chords that we can "utilize" to create chord movement around the A7 chord sound.
- Bb diminished (and it's inversions). This is really a substitution for A7b9.
- C diminished (and it's inversions) alternating with C#min7b5 (and it's inversions). This is really E minor-6-diminished scale (C#min7b5 = Emin6).

C diminished (unlike Bb diminished) doesn't function as a substitution but as a secondary dominant. So one of the diminishes (Bb) substitutes for A7, the other (C diminished) resolves to A7.

But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.

So the question. Are these two diminished chords applied to dominant context completely separately (even though they come from the same diminished scale)?
BH uses these diminishes typically by alternating them with their destinations. In this context, C diminished can be alternated with Emin6. However Bb diminished is a direct substitute for A7b9, so do you just use Bb diminished (and it's inversions) by itself without alternating them with another chord type?

[setemupjoe]

I have a question about (one aspect of) BH view of dominant-diminished relationship.

Let's take A7 as our dominant chord.
One of the diminished chords associated with A7 is Bb diminished (ie Bb, Db, E, G diminished chords). This is really a substitute for A7b9.
On the other hand we also got the diminished related to C#min7b5 (substitute for A9). That chord is C diminished (C, Eb, Gb, A diminished chords). This chord actually is not a substitute for A7 but it resolves to C#min7b5 (and therefore to A7 to some extend).

So to summarize there are two diminished chords that we can "utilize" to create chord movement around the A7 chord sound.
- Bb diminished (and it's inversions). This is really a substitution for A7b9.
- C diminished (and it's inversions) alternating with C#min7b5 (and it's inversions). This is really E minor-6-diminished scale (C#min7b5 = Emin6).

C diminished (unlike Bb diminished) doesn't function as a substitution but as a secondary dominant. So one of the diminishes (Bb) substitutes for A7, the other (C diminished) resolves to A7.

But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.

So the question. Are these two diminished chords applied to dominant context completely separately (even though they come from the same diminished scale)?
BH uses these diminishes typically by alternating them with their destinations. In this context, C diminished can be alternated with Emin6. However Bb diminished is a direct substitute for A7b9, so do you just use Bb diminished (and it's inversions) by itself without alternating them with another chord type?

The Bb dim chord can be substituted for the A7 as you stated as well as the C7, Eb7 and Gb7 using the same device of thinking of each note of the diminished chord as a b9 of the corresponding 7th chord.
So as well as having the Bb dim
Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)
we also have each of the root notes for the four 7th chords.
A, C, Eb, and Gb

This explains the use of the two diminished chords more elegantly than your concept of borrowing the Cdim chord from the Emi6.

[Tal_175]

The Bb dim chord can be substituted for the A7 as you stated as well as the C7, Eb7 and Gb7 using the same device of thinking of each note of the diminished chord as a b9 of the corresponding 7th chord.

Yes I agree so far.

So as well as having the Bb dim
Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)

I won't give you hard time about enharmonic spelling as I wrote down these four diminishes exactly the same way in my post.

we also have each of the root notes for the four 7th chords.
A, C, Eb, and Gb

Yes I know that but that really isn't the question. I already stated the use of Bb diminished (without reference to the related family of 4 dominants as it's not related to the question).

This explains the use of the two diminished chords more elegantly than your concept of borrowing the Cdim chord from the Emi6.

As much as I find it flattering that you think that minor 6 diminished scale is my concept, I have to admit belongs to BH Playing E minor 6 diminished over A7 is exactly how BH would describe it. This was the C diminished part of the question.
The question is about the relationship between the Bb and C diminishes with respect to A7.

[setemupjoe]

I thought your question was what to alternate Bbdim with. Using the four tonic notes to build the Cdim you would then alternate between these two chords.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question.

[pcjazz]

The question is about the relationship between the Bb and C diminishes with respect to A7.

As you note, Bb dim (C# dim) is the dim on the third of the dominant (A7).

C dim (A dim) is the dim associated with the tritone’s minor (Bbm6dim) aka A7alt.

[christianm77]

Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)

*Simmers with quiet rage*

[Tal_175]

I thought your question was what to alternate Bbdim with. Using the four tonic notes to build the Cdim you would then alternate between these two chords.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question.

No worries. It's hard to clearly phrase such a question without it turning into a system of differential equations or taking 7 pages long.
So now the context is more clear, in short, for A7 we got two diminishes.

- C diminished. This can be alternated with E min 6 (or C# -7b5). In other words BH's E minor-6-diminished scale.
- Bb diminished. This is A7b9 or as you stated the diminished that generates the family of 4 related dominants (A7, C7, Eb7, Gb7).

OK now I see what you meant in your response: A7, C7, Eb7 and Gb7 are also the roots of C diminished. However in my view the role of C diminished is more in the first sense (E min 6 diminished scale). IMO, these 4 dominants are conceptually related to Bb diminished in the BH world.
You're correct that I was wondering what can be alternated with Bb diminished. Are you suggesting that A7, C7, Eb7 and Gb7 can be used to alternate with Bb diminished? Or do you mean that we can alternate these dominants (which are related to Bb diminished)?

[Tal_175]

I guess we also have Ab diminished to alternate with Amaj6. By treating A7 as Amaj6. But let's leave that one out for now.

[Tal_175]

As you note, Bb dim (C# dim) is the dim on the third of the dominant (A7).

C dim (A dim) is the dim associated with the tritone’s minor (Bbm6dim) aka A7alt.

I think it is C dim, not Bb diminished that is related to the third of A7. (C#min7b5 alternated with C diminished). The bigger puzzle to me is if Bb diminished can be alternated with something and fit into A7 harmonic context.

[grahambop]

This is something I’ve thought about too. Barry says on an A7 you can play Emin6/dim scale (= A9) or Bbmin6/dim (= A7 alt). So both of these already contain movement in their respective chord scales (and they share the same dim chord, i.e. Adim and its equivalents).

But of course you can just play a Bbdim chord to get A7b9. But then what movements do you apply to it? I don’t know if Barry says anything about this. I tend to just move it in minor thirds (so to the other equivalent dim chords). Or maybe move from the dim chord below each one (i.e. play Adim to Bbdim, then Cdim to C#dim, etc). I think Wes Montgomery occasionally did something like this in his chord solos (or at least he just played dim chords in any sequence he felt like, to outline a particular melodic line).

Might be worth looking at the ‘things I learned from Barry Harris’ YouTube videos, maybe he covers this point somewhere.

[Tal_175]

I think Wes Montgomery occasionally did something like this in his chord solos (or at least he just played dim chords in any sequence he felt like, to outline a particular melodic line).

Yes, specifically at 0:21. Coincidentally it's also over A7b9. I remember transcribing this last year in preparation for a performance. He starts with jumping b3 to an inversion, then continues diminished scale, finishes chromatically:

[grahambop]

Yes I think you can basically move a dim chord to any other dim chords you like, as long as you keep moving (also helps if you are as hip at it as Wes!)

[A. Kingstone]

From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

BORROW
RESOLVE
REPEAT

*

---------------

If Barry's 7b5o Scale (or 7o Scale) is considered we have all 3 diminished chords to play/move on our A7 fakebook chord.


A7

Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always)

Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo

A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab


Hope That Helps

*
PS: In the BORROWING section (don't have a book on hand for page #'s)

[Tal_175]

From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

BORROW
RESOLVE
REPEAT

With this do you mean, for example, C7 C#o Eb7 Eo etc. ?
I do have the book, I'll check this out in the book as well.

[A. Kingstone]

With this do you mean, for example, C7 C#o Eb7 Eo etc. ?
I do have the book, I'll check this out in the book as well.

No; I don't think so.

You have raised a fascinating question.

[Tal_175]

From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

BORROW
RESOLVE
REPEAT

Oh I see do you mean diminishes borrowing notes from C7, Eb7, Gb7 and back?

[rintincop]

But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.

Going up the diminished scale is not bad, it resolves when your dominant goes to a tonic. So over A7 you may play the chords Bbdim C dim Db dim Eb dim etc... and eventually resolve to Dmaj7

Play "E-6 dim" scale chords over A7 when it's "A7 #11"
Play "Bb-6 dim" scale chords over A7 when it's the "ALT"
Play GMaj scale chords over A7 when is "A7 sus"

Simply play Bbdim and its inversions over A7 when it's simply "A7b9"

[rintincop]

A7
Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always).
Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo.
A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab.

I agree with your first two sentences, but what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think

"B D F Ab" over A7 works.

[grahambop]

I agree with your first two sentences, but what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think

"B D F Ab" over A7 works.

That is just the dim chord contained in the A7/dim and A7b5/dim scales, so you would play it within those scales rather than in isolation.

[A. Kingstone]

Oh I see do you mean diminishes borrowing notes from C7, Eb7, Gb7 and back?

Yes

[A. Kingstone]

That is just the dim chord contained in the A7/dim and A7b5/dim scales, so you would play it within those scales rather than in isolation.

Yes

[Tal_175]

Going up the diminished scale is not bad, it resolves when your dominant goes to a tonic. So over A7 you may play the chords Bbdim C dim Db dim Eb dim etc... and eventually resolve to Dmaj7

True, in fact the Wes Montgomery video above is a good example of this sort of thing (he even moves dim's chromatically in the end). In that case those diminishes (implying A7b6) resolve back to Dmin7 (the first chord of Yesterdays).
I was thinking in terms of the typical BH tension-resolution movements, like along his major and minor diminished scales. Just going up dim scale doesn't have that effect, but yes, it still works in a different way.

[bako]

what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think "B D F Ab" over A7 works.

Those notes can be seen as E7b9, dominant of A7. Playing the notes of the dominant
of the chord of the moment, allows a movement away and back to the principal chord.
This is another way to look at notes other than from their strict literal analytical function against the notated chord symbol.

[setemupjoe]

In the excellent Jimmy Raney Aebersold play along “10 favorite jazz standards” Jimmy substitutes the V7 chord for a #IIdim chord.
He does it in “Hotel Grande” and “Like Somebody”. Both are in the key of Eb and he plays F-7, F#dim, Eb in the turnaround instead of the usual F-7, Bb7, Eb.
Food for thought.

[christianm77]

In the excellent Jimmy Raney Aebersold play along “10 favorite jazz standards” Jimmy substitutes the V7 chord for a #IIdim chord.
He does it in “Hotel Grande” and “Like Somebody”. Both are in the key of Eb and he plays F-7, F#dim, Eb in the turnaround instead of the usual F-7, Bb7, Eb.
Food for thought.

Always like the sound of that sub.

Yeah I think thing to bear in mind is the function of a dim7 chord is to link one chord to another.