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  1. #901

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    C dim major 7th resolving to Cmaj7 , "Bali Hai" for example, uses that biii diminished sound. Also, "The hills are alive, with the sound of music."
    F to Fdim maj7
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-24-2019 at 06:29 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #902

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    C dim major 7th resolving to Cmaj7 , "Bali Hai" for example, uses that biii diminished sound.
    I’ll throw Spring is Here into that group as well.

  4. #903

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    Am I the only person who thinks of the I/bIII/#IVo/VI dim 7 as the blues chord? It harmonises the most common melodic embellishing blue notes b3/b5 so you can always put it in there.

  5. #904

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Am I the only person who thinks of the I/bIII/#IVo/VI dim 7 as the blues chord? It harmonises the most common melodic embellishing blue notes b3/b5 so you can always put it in there.
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  6. #905

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
    Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

    BORROW
    RESOLVE
    REPEAT

    *

    ---------------

    If Barry's 7b5o Scale (or 7o Scale) is considered we have all 3 diminished chords to play/move on our A7 fakebook chord.


    A7

    Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always)

    Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo

    A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab


    Hope That Helps

    *
    PS: In the BORROWING section (don't have a book on hand for page #'s)
    Alan, I assume you mean your book, or is this one of the Barry Harris Workshop books?
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  7. #906

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar View Post
    Alan, I assume you mean your book, or is this one of the Barry Harris Workshop books?

    Yes Barry and my book regarding harmony for guitar. Sorry I didn't see your question sooner.

    I was visiting Howard Rees who produced the Workshop Videos and books and asked him about the first couple of bars of Embraceable You which I've been working in different keys. He asked me if I knew why Barry plays Embraceable You in his key of choice: I didn't.

    Howard told me that Barry was playing the Village Vanguard and Tony Bennett was there and sat in, suggested Embraceable You in 'F' and Barry has played it in 'F' ever since. It sits nicely on guitar.

  8. #907

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    Yes Barry and my book regarding harmony for guitar. Sorry I didn't see your question sooner.

    I was visiting Howard Rees who produced the Workshop Videos and books and asked him about the first couple of bars of Embraceable You which I've been working in different keys. He asked me if I knew why Barry plays Embraceable You in his key of choice: I didn't.

    Howard told me that Barry was playing the Village Vanguard and Tony Bennett was there and sat in, suggested Embraceable You in 'F' and Barry has played it in 'F' ever since. It sits nicely on guitar.
    Joe Alterman's Blog: Tony Bennett at the Village Vanguard

  9. #908

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    Thank you so much! That is lovely.

    Alan

  10. #909

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    Regarding so called 8 7 6 phrases,
    C7 would be different than C6


    see below

    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:09 PM.

  11. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    8 #2 3 7
    7 b7 #5 6
    6 3 4 #4 5
    I'm not sure if those work out rhythmically. I didn't play it, but just looking at it here, here's my thoughts:

    For the 8 phrase I would want one that started on the down beat and ended on 7 on a down beat
    for the 7 it would start on down beat and end on 6 on the upbeat
    6 would start on an upbeat and end on a downbeat on 5

    maybe try that?
    White belt
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  12. #911
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly? Anyway, you could reverse engineer 876 basically for major, minor or dominant by subbing in the other types in the same way.

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.

  13. #912

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly?

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.
    I'm not saying this because Christian is a forum member. I don't know him personally and I have no stake in the success of his videos. I'm saying it because I think it's true. This video is the best material I've seen about how to shred BH stuff and get them in your playing (as a supplement to the original BH content). Simplified in a very purposeful way. There is also a worksheet somewhere for the stuff he plays I think:
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-20-2019 at 01:20 PM.

  14. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly? Anyway, you could reverse engineer 876 basically for major, minor or dominant by subbing in the other types in the same way.

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.
    I'm not 100% what you're saying here, is this a rhetorical question? I've been shedding The Barry Harris ABCs for about 4 years, and I like to put my work to use by creating lines. I don't think students need to graduate from the ABCs before they can create stuff. You seem to have pretty strong opinions for someone new to the stuff
    White belt
    My Youtube

  15. #914
    Ok. Sorry. TLDNR:

    Don't G minor 5432 lines over C7 = "2876" C7 -type lines?

    And if so, isn't there already somewhat of a template for 876? And can't you do the same for other chord types?

  16. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Ok. Sorry. TLDNR:

    Don't G minor 5432 lines over C7 = "2876" C7 -type lines?

    And if so, isn't there already somewhat of a template for 876? And can't you do the same for other chord types?
    Let's check it out (disclaimer i don't have a guitar handy)
    Our 1/8 phrase would be: CGABb starting on the upbeat ending on downbeat
    that makes our 7 line- BbDF#A that works perfectly (A on the upbeat)
    makes our 6 line- AGbGG#A. If we adjust this one phrase to land on G we could run through the whole thing seamlessly.

    Cool idea!
    White belt
    My Youtube

  17. #916
    your alternate 2 phrase would be: DF#GCBb which is great. I'll be practicing these tonight!
    White belt
    My Youtube

  18. #917
    Wait i just realized something. There is an alternate 2 phrase in the book. which is 2 b7 7 1. If we use this for the 6th phrase (AF F# G) we land perfectly on the G and can go right into the 5 phrase. wow

    Matt, you can lead the group
    White belt
    My Youtube

  19. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Wait i just realized something. There is an alternate 2 phrase in the book. which is 2 b7 7 1. If we use this for the 6th phrase (AF F# G) we land perfectly on the G and can go right into the 5 phrase. wow

    Matt, you can lead the group
    Ha. Yeah. Thanks. :-)

    It's a very Harris -type approach though honestly IMO. To me it would be akin to "What are the 5432 patterns for half diminished?". The answer for him with half diminished is always "play dominant" I guess? Anyway, more mileage out of less material is very much his thing. Reg's is much the same but in different ways.

  20. #919
    Yeah for sure I play all these in multiple applications, but it's just crazy how it perfectly fits with the vanilla version
    White belt
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  21. #920

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I'm not sure if those work out rhythmically. I didn't play it, but just looking at it here, here's my thoughts:
    For the 8 phrase I would want one that started on the down beat and ended on 7 on a down beat
    for the 7 it would start on down beat and end on 6 on the upbeat
    6 would start on an upbeat and end on a downbeat on 5, maybe try that?
    The chord tones of C6 should be on the "on" beats ( C E G A)
    the non-chord tones (passing tones) should be on the "off" beats ( 2 4 b6 7 )

    8 on beat
    7 off
    6 on
    b6 off
    5 on
    4 off
    3 on
    2 off
    1 on
    ---------
    Yes, C7 would be different than C6

    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:08 PM.

  22. #921

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    The chord tones of C6 should be on the "on" beats ( C E G A)
    the non-chord tones (passing tones) should be on the "off" beats ( 2 4 b6 7 )

    8 on beat
    7 off
    6 on
    b6 off
    5 on
    4 off
    3 on
    2 off
    1 on
    ---------
    8 #2 3 7
    7 b7 #5 6
    6 3 4 #4 5 (many contenders for 6)
    Wouldn’t the 7 b7 #5 6 line place the b7 on the beat? If you’re thinking C6 that may not be what you’d want. I usually play that line as
    7 5 #5 6

  23. #922

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    If you transpose the original 5 4 3 2 so all of 5 4 3 2 are 1's, you get (and unpivot them when necessary):
    5 (maj): 1 3 4 7 5 6
    4 (maj): 1 6 #6 7
    3 (min): 1 3 5 7
    2 (min): 1 6 b7 7 1

    So you get two maj7 phrases and two min7 phrases in 5432.

    Transposing back to 8 7 6:
    8 (maj): 8 6 #6 7 (choosing the 2nd maj7 phrase)
    7 (min): 7 2 4 6 (first min7 phrase) (can be pivoted)
    6 (min): 6 4 5 #5 6 (second min7 phrase)
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-20-2019 at 06:22 PM.

  24. #923

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    Wouldn’t the 7 b7 #5 6 line place the b7 on the beat? If you’re thinking C6 that may not be what you’d want. I usually play that line as
    7 5 #5 6
    Yes, C7 would be different than C6
    (see below)
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:10 PM.

  25. #924

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    For Dominant, the 7th should be on the beat. Maybe revise. For the major scale the 7th is on the off beat.

  26. #925

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    Of course, too early in the morning here! Let me have another crack at it and I'll repost.

  27. #926

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    updated, see below
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  28. #927

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    see below
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:52 PM.

  29. #928

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    This should work for building up a descending dominant line:

    Official Barry Harris Thread-bh-type-descending-dominant-line-jpeg

  30. #929

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    Your 8 7 and 6 phrases all target 6 on a downbeat, the idea was to have 6 on an upbeat for C7 (chord tones on the beat) Your triplet figure would for 8 and even 6, but not b7. I would revise.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  31. #930

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    Ok, but your '7' phrase over C6 has the 7th off the beat and b7 on the beat. Similarly, the '6' phrase has its major 3rd placed off the beat. Maybe there's a reason that Barry only extended these to the 5th degree...

    Btw, while I can see its value as an exercise, BH and Parker place the 6th on the beat all the time. The bebop cliche 8-7b7-9-6-5 is an obvious example.

  32. #931

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    Good points.
    5432 all keep the chord tones, 135, on the beat.
    I think we have 2 cases for 6 , one when it’s a chord tone of a tonic 6th chord and thus on the beat (C6 chord) . And a second case when it’s a passing tone of a dominant scale, thus the 7th is on the beat instead of the 6.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  33. #932

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    For what it's worth here are the lines I've used for years over C6 and C7 to extend Barry Harris' 5 4 3 2 lines. To keep the concept intact for the C6 line it would be
    8 7 6 b6
    and for C7 it would be
    8 7 b7 6

    We need to include the passing notes as well. The b6 and b7 lines of course begin off the beat.
    Attached Images Attached Images Official Barry Harris Thread-barry-harris-c6-png Official Barry Harris Thread-barry-harris-c7-png 

  34. #933

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    Excellent, Mark. I love the phrases you’ve come up with.
    I’m always searching for alternative 6 phrases for C6. The one we have in your example tends to deemphasize the C6 chord outline and instead emphasizes the V of C6 . Nothing wrong with that of course. However, an alternative phrase like 6 1 3 b6 #4 5 strongly emphasizes the C6 chord in my hearing, and which you did for 6 in your C7 phrase. Remember, in 5432, the 5 3 and 2 phrases serve to outline the chord of the moment and the 2 and 4 phrases serve to momentarily outline the V7 of chord of the moment.

    Searching thru the Parker solos, it’s hard to find a redundant 6 phrase. It looks to me as if Parker mostly applied the half step rule or an enclosure to arrive at the 5th on the beat.
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:17 PM.

  35. #934

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Excellent, Mark. I love the phrases you’ve come up with.
    I’m always searching for alternative 6 phrases for C6. The one we have in your example tends to deemphasize the C6 chord outline and instead emphasizes the V of C6 . Nothing wrong with that of course. However, an alternative phrase like 6 3 4 #4 5 strongly emphasizes the C6 chord in my hearing, and which you did for 6 in your C7 phrase. Remember, in 5432, the 5 3 and 2 phrases serve to outline the chord of the moment and the 2 and 4 phrases serve to momentarily outline the V7 of chord of the moment. Thus, I like my 6 phrase to outline C6 ( something like 6 3 4 #4 5), rather than 6 2 4 b6 (a V Of the chord type outline). Make sense?

    Searching thru the Parker solos, it’s hard to find a redundant 6 phrase. It looks to me as if Parker mostly applied the half step rule or an enclosure to arrive at the 5th on the beat.
    Good point. I would argue that the 3 line is actually outlining the V of the chord. With C6 it plays the E, then the G,B and landing on the D. Hence a Gmajor triad over C6. But I do understand it's just a valid to hear the G and B as the 5th and 7th.

    As I sought to mirror the movements of the 5 4 3 2 into the 8 7 6 b6 the line naturally fell into the V of C6. That's the way I hear the phrase both in 5 4 3 2 and 8 7 6 b6. It sounds like the C6 going to G7 and resolving back to C6 just the way we do it when we're moving the chords through the scale C6, Ddim7, C6/E, Fdim7 etc.

    But I do take your point of strong beat phrase and weak beat phrase outlining the I or the V. I guess we have to find what clicks for us and run with that.

  36. #935

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    I agree , I too would argue both ways that the 3 phrase is outlining the V, and its outlining the 5th and the 7th of C major 7.
    "To V, or not to V, that is the question". Both impressions are fine.

    Think about the 3 phrase when it's C-7 : b3 5 b7 2
    That I definatly hear as C-7 chord tones and not a G7 outline.

  37. #936

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    I agree , I too would argue both ways that the 3 phrase is outlining the V, and its outlining the 5th and the 7th of C major 7.
    "To V, or not to V, that is the question". Both impressions are fine.

    Think about the 3 phrase when it's C-7 : b3 5 b7 2
    That I definatly hear as C-7 chord tones and not a G7 outline.
    For C-7 I’d use the Eb6 line seeing they’re the same chord.

  38. #937

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    For C-7 I’d use the Eb6 line seeing they’re the same chord.
    What phrase notes would you play from the note Eb when the chord is C-7 ?
    Eb F# G D (corrected) would be nice. That's your 8 phrase in Eb. It's what I do too, and our 7 phrases are the same too (triple enclosure)
    But how about from the note C over a C-7? That would be your 6 phrase in Eb , I find that one problematic over C-7.
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:18 PM.

  39. #938

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    What phrase notes would you play from the note Eb when the chord is C-7 ?
    Eb F# G B Bb would be nice. That's your 8 phrase in Eb.
    But how about from the note C ? That would be your 6 phrase in Eb , I think that might benefit from a revision, right?
    Eb F# G D. I think you did a typo above.

    I’m happy with the 6 phrase as it outlines the G7-9 pushing back into the C-7 which is pleasing to my ear.
    C F Ab B

  40. #939

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    (yes, corrected my typo above, Eb F# G D, thanks)

    By the way , a good tester of a 6 phrase is to embellish the opening melody note of "Skylark",
    as does "Meditation". Mack The Knife targets 6 a lot too.
    In C, I would play A E F F# to G
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:16 PM.

  41. #940

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    Updated the 876 phrases: Chord tones are on the beat and they trigger partial arpeggio embellishments. Non chord tones are placed on off beats and are triple enclosure embellishments (triple enclosure is in the add 3 half steps rule realm) . Thus arpeggios and triple enclosures alternate (as 5432 phrases do). The half step rule is included (b6 on Tonic scale, natural 7 for Dominant scale) . These play as a combination phrase very smoothly and lead right into the 5432 combination phrase.
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-23-2019 at 11:50 PM.

  42. #941

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?
    Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

    I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  43. #942

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  44. #943

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar View Post
    Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

    I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?
    Thanks!

    I am no Barry Harris scholar, and to be honest I’ve been more focused on his harmony theory (as initially presented to me in Alan’s book). But you’ve just put into one short paragraph exactly what I’ve found myself doing to incorporate “that sound” into my single line Improvisation. Seeing it written out gives me a little more clarity about my practice.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  45. #944

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar View Post
    Since there is so much material in "the basics", I've decided to narrow my focus. In the Bird transcriptions I've done, I see a lot of chord and chord triplet with the chromatic note before the chord in ascending lines, a lot of descending scales with the added half steps, tritones and 5 4 3 lines. I'm focusing on getting these into lines especially on dominant chords, but on other lines as well. I am getting more comfortable at getting these in within my normal playing lines, which is my goal. I want to get Barrys material incorporated into what I already play, not just play Barry lines.

    I'm curious how others are incorporating Barrys method into their playing?
    Yeah I think it was transcription (I hate that term as writing it down is not mandatory or even terribly important to the process, anyway) which drew me into Barry's stuff again. I was aware of it before, but it always seemed a bit pedantic and dogmatic to me. Then I realised its power to encapsulate what I was finding in Bird and Bud and I went down the rabbit hole...

  46. #945

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    I contacted Howard Rees this morning. He confirms this appeal is legit. Please contribute if you can.