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  1. #751

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    OK, thanks I found Christian's post. I can see playing Ab Major over vi minor is a reasonable fit both functionally and chord tone alignment wise. But Db major scale over IV chord seems a bit less satisfying. The Gb doesn't fit the key obviously. I'm just trying to understand, is playing major scale from the root of IV over IV chord a best guess approach based on available Barry Harris material out there or does Barry Harris explain somewhere why that's a good fit?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #752

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    Oh wait I was referring to the post below, but there is a later post where Christian suggests Ab major over Dbmaj7. That fits the key of course On the other hand it doesn't fit the function. Barry Harris motivates these scale exercises as also a way of hearing the harmony (chords come from scales after all). I can see playing the tonic major scale over vi and iii working reasonably well in that regard. But over subdominant?
    Imagine a tune that starts with a progression- regression pattern like IV I IV I, just playing the major scale 4 times would miss the progression entirely. Is this a short coming of simplifying the major harmony to dominant and major scales?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Reposted from ATTYA thread:

    OK, here's my Barry Harris scale breakdown for this tune. Haven't proofread this so there might be mistakes. The middle eight looks mental with those accidentals, but for non-readers, here's the scale breakdown

    1-7 for 1 bar scales, 1-7-1 for 2 bar scales, 7-1 when running a scale down to the third.

    Fm7 --> Ab major (I) (Fm7=Ab6)
    Bbm7 Eb7 --> Eb dominant (V)
    Abmaj7 --> Ab major (I)
    Dbmaj7 --> Db major (IV)
    Dm7b5 G7b9 --> Bb dominant down to the third of G7 (II7)
    Cmaj7 --> C major (III)

    Then, same thing in Eb major.

    Middle 8 is easy
    Am7 D7 --> D dominant
    Gmaj7 --> G major
    F#m7 B7 --> B dominant
    Emaj7 --> E major
    C7b9 --> Eb dominant down to the third of C7

    Fm7 --> Ab major (Fm7=Ab6)
    Bbm7 Eb7 --> Eb dominant
    Abmaj7 --> Ab major
    Dbmaj7 --> Db major
    Gb7 --> Gb dominant
    Ab/C --> Ab major
    Bo7 --> Bb7 down to the third of G7 (?)
    Bbm7 Eb7 --> Eb dominant
    Abmaj7 --> Ab major

    Run in all positions, octaves etc and you will be in an excellent position to solo on the tune.

  4. #753

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Oh wait I was referring to the post below, but there is a later post where Christian suggests Ab major over Dbmaj7. That fits the key of course On the other hand it doesn't fit the function. Barry Harris motivates these scale exercises as also a way of hearing the harmony (chords come from scales after all). I can see playing the tonic major scale over vi and iii working reasonably well in that regard. But over subdominant?
    Imagine a tune that starts with a progression- regression pattern like IV I IV I, just playing the major scale 4 times would miss the progression entirely. Is this a short coming of simplifying the major harmony to dominant and major scales?
    That’s not how Barry teaches it. I was wrong.

    It’s Db with a #4. If you call it Lydian the entire workshop shuts down for 30m while Barry has a rant.

    Don’t do it kids.

  5. #754

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s Db with a #4. If you call it Lydian the entire workshop shuts down for 30m while Barry has a rant.

    Don’t do it kids.
    If I ever have an opportunity to go to a Barry Harris workshop again, it'll take all my concentration not to yell out Lydian. Love it when Barry goes on a rant.

  6. #755

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    If I ever have an opportunity to go to a Barry Harris workshop again, it'll take all my concentration not to yell out Lydian. Love it when Barry goes on a rant.
    The tension in the room was palpable

  7. #756

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    Look up Jimmy Slyde.
    I've posted this 3X already & will keep doing so until banned...


  8. #757

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That’s not how Barry teaches it. I was wrong.

    It’s Db with a #4. If you call it Lydian the entire workshop shuts down for 30m while Barry has a rant.

    Don’t do it kids.
    Did Barry call it Db with #4?

    Anyway listening to Barry on ATTYA, I don't think I've heard him land on the G note too much (either natural or flatted), but there aren't that many recordings of him playing this tune.

  9. #758

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B View Post
    ATTYA a la Barry is discussed by Christian and others on page 3 of this very thread!
    Yes but it’s bollocks

  10. #759

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Did Barry call it Db with #4?

    Anyway listening to Barry on ATTYA, I don't think I've heard him land on the G note too much (either natural or flatted), but there aren't that many recordings of him playing this tune.
    Well Db with an A

  11. #760

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well Db with an A
    Wait is this a typo? I thought it was a #4.

  12. #761

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Wait is this a typo? I thought it was a #4.
    Oh yeah sorry G. Been a long day.

  13. #762

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    I think perhaps Barry is touching on it here. He is talking about the Cmin7 chord near the end of ATTYA, but I think the same principle applies. He is basically saying that the scale of the chord depends on what key it is operating in. Maj7 chords exist in 2 keys. So when it is Dbmaj7 in the key of Ab, you need to adjust the notes you play on it to fit the Ab maj scale (if I understand him correctly).


  14. #763

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s Db with a #4.
    It's getting kind of similar to the Berklee method at this point. May be that's what I'll do. I'll raise my hand in the next Barry Harris workshop and ask "Mr. Harris, Mr. Harris, this is all based on the Berklee method isn't it? Am I right?".
    Then very shortly after the whole class will watch me get beaten up by a 93 year old.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-02-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  15. #764

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I think perhaps Barry is touching on it here. He is talking about the Cmin7 chord near the end of ATTYA, but I think the same principle applies. He is basically saying that the scale of the chord depends on what key it is operating in. Maj7 chords exist in 2 keys. So when it is Dbmaj7 in the key of Ab, you need to adjust the notes you play on it to fit the Ab maj scale (if I understand him correctly).

    Yes, sound about right. Though when deciding on chord extensions as in the video, it might be less obvious?
    Those pianists love to put them 9 notes on minor chords. And Barry won’t allow it on the 3 minor.

  16. #765

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    I’m always putting 9ths on minor chords. It doesn’t worry me on that Cm chord as much as it does Barry!

  17. #766

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    iiim isn’t really minor, it’s kind of an inversion of the I chord

  18. #767
    iiim is the "6th on the 5th"
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  19. #768

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    It is true that iiim is the "6th on the 5th" and it's sort of an inversion of the I chord. But that's all from the chord tones point of view. The consideration in the video and in the question of what scale to play on IV major of ATTYA for scale exercises is not the chord tones, it's scalar passing tones.
    In the video for example, BH tells the student that Dmin in the key of Bb, when realized as a scale has a b6 in it (Bb) not 6. That's regardless of whether one considers Dmin an inversion of I chord or 6th on the 5th or just the iii chord.

  20. #769
    The scalar passing tones are the same for I as they are for iii, so it's not an irrelevant point.
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  21. #770
    Here's an example: Barry's scale outline for a turnaround to ii is Cmaj up and down to the 3rd of A. So you play a measure and a half of Cmaj so you have the min 6th on the iii, otherwise if you play a measure of C then a measure of A6, you will have the major 6th on the iii
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  22. #771

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The scalar passing tones are the same for I as they are for iii, so it's not an irrelevant point.
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Here's an example: Barry's scale outline for a turnaround to ii is Cmaj up and down to the 3rd of A. So you play a measure and a half of Cmaj so you have the min 6th on the iii, otherwise if you play a measure of C then a measure of A6, you will have the major 6th on the iii
    That's true, playing I major scale over iii takes care of the passing notes and fits the function. So seeing it as an inversion of I conceptually works I guess. But I don't see how 6th on the 5th helps. Say in your example in the key of C, iii - VI7 - ii. I don't see how the observation that Emin7 is Gmaj6 resolves whether to play C or C# in the scalar outline of the chord.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-02-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  23. #772
    I didn't mean to imply it mattered for lines, it is just a little fun-fact to put what Christian said in BH terms
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  24. #773

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I didn't mean to imply it mattered for lines, it is just a little fun-fact to put what Christian said in BH terms
    I see.

  25. #774

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    Ooh that mediant ambiguity

  26. #775

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    I would get a lot out of folks posting chord progressions and outlines for tunes. Anybody else feel this way?

    I did this a while back for Confirmation.
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  27. #776

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    All these talks about ATTYA had me listen to a recent live recording of Barry playing this tune. The first couple of bars on the bridge had me scratching my head quite a bit:

    Official Barry Harris Thread-screen-shot-2019-05-04-17-03-22-jpg

    So the first four bars of the bridge is a ii-V-I in G. Barry play a nice melody on the first two bars which sound alright, but looking at the notes, I don't know if I can explain what he's doing exactly. Doesn't sound like he's playing G, but doesn't sound like he's trying to sound "outside" either.
    To me it sound like he's outlining Gm over the Am7, and sound like Cm over the D7. Over the G it doesn't sound like he resolved just yet, and to me it sound like he continue to think D7, and resolve to the third of G only on the 4 beat that bar (the one that marked as 19). Anyone got a better idea? I'm not that convinced on the first two bars.

    The next bars is a ii-V-I in E (marked as 21). Here I can analyze it easily with Barrys approach. He start from the root of B7, then go down and put two half steps. Now he's on the b6 of B (the note G), and that's a common way for Barry to go into the tritone of B7 (i.e. F7). So from the G he goes down the Am7b5 chord which is outlining F7, and then resolve to the third of E.

    Over the C7 going to Fm (bar marked as 24) he plays his Eb7 to the third of C scale, but he lays the rhythm kinda off, with a nice delayed resolution. Love it when he do that.


    You can listen to the solo here (video start right on the bridge):


  28. #777

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    I think in the first two bars he is just playing off of the melody. He is continuing melody based ideas in the following bars as well. I could be wrong I'm just heading out the door so I didn't analyse. I'm just hearing it as he is following the melody.

  29. #778

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    Not smart enough about Barry Harris stuff to know how he thinks about anything.
    That aside, my observation:

    Viewing Am7 D7 as just D dominant, the A-Bb stuff is just 5 and b13 followed by 1 and b9 and a chromatic approach to F# of Gma7.

  30. #779

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Not smart enough about Barry Harris stuff to know how he thinks about anything.
    That aside, my observation:

    Viewing Am7 D7 as just D dominant, the A-Bb stuff is just 5 and b13 followed by 1 and b9 and a chromatic approach to F# of Gma7.
    You are probably right. Just that my ears didn’t hear them as b13 and b9. But I never trusted my ears so why start now

  31. #780

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    Barry demonstrate All The Things You Are in a recent workshop:

    Emmet Cohen - Barry Harris plays and teaches All the... | Facebook

    (The video is public, you don’t need Facebook account to watch)

  32. #781

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    Maestro and me today.

    Such an inspiring man.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-image1-jpeg

  33. #782

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    What would you guys play for BH chord outlines over the first several bars of Old Devil Moon?

    FMaj7 - Cm7 for 6 bars F7sus F7 for 2 bars.


    Here is what I am thinking:
    F major up F7 up for 6 bars
    F7 up and down 2 bars

    Let me know where I am not correct. Thanks!
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  34. #783

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    Why does he hate the word Lydian?

  35. #784

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    I thought he taught that scales sound better descending from the 7th rather than ascending from the root and therefore that was the drill.

  36. #785

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Why does he hate the word Lydian?
    I think the church mode names of scales represents a teaching pedagogy that he disagrees with. He finds it too complex, academic and not the way how the original masters thought about their music.
    That is probably true for bebop, but not so much for more modern jazz. I reckon he dislikes jazz styles that came after bebop and hard bob as well, but I'm not sure.
    This is a bit surprising to me though. I think of jazz as a very progressive type of music where players constantly re-invent themselves, study their music and innovate. Had Charlie Parker lived longer, I doubt he would have still played pure bebop in the 60's and 70's. On the other hand Louis Armstrong thought Charlie Parker and his gang ruined jazz while Barry Harris thinks Miles Davis ruined jazz

  37. #786

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I think the church mode names of scales represents a teaching pedagogy that he disagrees with. He finds it too complex, academic and not the way how the original masters thought about their music.
    That is probably true for bebop, but not so much for more modern jazz. I reckon he dislikes jazz styles that came after bebop and hard bob as well, but I'm not sure.
    This is a bit surprising to me though. I think of jazz as a very progressive type of music where players constantly re-invent themselves, study their music and innovate. Had Charlie Parker lived longer, I doubt he would have still played pure bebop in the 60's and 70's. On the other hand Louis Armstrong thought Charlie Parker and his gang ruined jazz while Barry Harris thinks Miles Davis ruined jazz
    Yep. And also Barry likes to name things good. Don’t let him get started on the half whole scale

  38. #787

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    He usually has clear reasons for naming things as he does. It can be a bit confusing sometimes.

    OTOH the Greek names are dumb. But here we are.

  39. #788

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    What's the Barry Harris procedure for practicing playing arpeggios over changes?
    Last edited by rintincop; 05-09-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  40. #789

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  41. #790

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    Originally Posted by tamirgal

    "you start a phrase on the 2nd of the dominant, put two half steps till reaching the 7, from there play a major7 arpeggio up, now you'r on the 6th, go down the scale to the third of the dominant, then up the diminished arpeggio...etc, etc "


    This should be our goal, this is a good example of how to connect the scales and arps, and not so much just the scale practice.

  42. #791

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    What's the Barry Harris procedure for practicing playing arpeggios over changes?
    arpeggios are part of Barry's ABCs. Once you know the scale outline for a certain standard, you can (and probably should) practice any of the ABCs in the context of that standards. So that could be applying arpeggios or chords, or 5-4-3-2 or any of your licks to the scale outline of the changes..

  43. #792

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar View Post
    What would you guys play for BH chord outlines over the first several bars of Old Devil Moon?

    FMaj7 - Cm7 for 6 bars F7sus F7 for 2 bars.


    Here is what I am thinking:
    F major up F7 up for 6 bars
    F7 up and down 2 bars

    Let me know where I am not correct. Thanks!
    Anyone??
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  44. #793

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    Down from the 7th is a Barry Harris way to play scales that I prefer. Up from the root sounds like a drill to me. Down from the 7th sounds more melodic to me. Run continuous scales down and up by inserting the half steps when needed to keep chord tones on the beat. That’s most of the scale balancing act. Of course freely mix in double and triple enclosures, arpeggios, and don’t forget the 4321 get out of trouble phrases. And some triplets.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  45. #794

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    Bud Powell’s transcription on Celia:



    This is bebop supreme!

  46. #795

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  47. #796

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    This is awesome Alan!!
    Thank you for the vid

  48. #797
    Alan is the man.
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  49. #798

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Bud Powell’s transcription on Celia:



    This is bebop supreme!

    Trying to Bud Powell at 90% of the speed. Almost got it:


  50. #799

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    Thanks Alan.
    I've been messing around with that idea (descending single note line harmonized with 3,6,4,7 then repeat same at Tritone) but I can't seem to figure out the principle behind it. How can I develop different lines? I've tried a few, some going down, some going up, and then trying out different chords but I feel like I'm shooting in the dark.
    I'm following the principles of using 2nd inversion to Root chords with a simple diatonic line. I've been using the template you used of skipping the 2,5,1 and going to the 4,7. I've been trying different chord degrees depending on the melody I'm trying to use.
    Nothing I come up with sounds as cool as the one played in the video.
    Has anybody had success with making this idea their own?
    Larry

  51. #800

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    Quote Originally Posted by podink View Post
    Thanks Alan.
    I've been messing around with that idea (descending single note line harmonized with 3,6,4,7 then repeat same at Tritone) but I can't seem to figure out the principle behind it. How can I develop different lines? I've tried a few, some going down, some going up, and then trying out different chords but I feel like I'm shooting in the dark.
    I'm following the principles of using 2nd inversion to Root chords with a simple diatonic line. I've been using the template you used of skipping the 2,5,1 and going to the 4,7. I've been trying different chord degrees depending on the melody I'm trying to use.
    Nothing I come up with sounds as cool as the one played in the video.
    Has anybody had success with making this idea their own?
    Larry

    Larry: My advice is to just persevere. Try the example in different keys resolving to the one after playing the tri-tone move. It's new to me also so I'm not using it in songs on the fly just yet. The good thing about practicing it over and over is that it sounds good, eventually you can work it into an arrangement.
    I was messing around last night with the same concept using Drop 2&4 chords where the outside interval of a 13th moves.