Official Barry Harris Thread

[Tal_175]

I think that's the wrong mindset. You don't do this shit to make money. You put yourself in the environment anyway you can because you love this music and you want to be around it and learn it and prepared to do whatever you can to hang on in there.

It's not NYC, but in London I frequently see players that make me reconsider my choice of career... Except... It's GREAT! You know, to be in an inspiring environment. I would play worse if I lived in the sticks. Sorry, but I would.... There's a level. You step up to it. And the young kids coming up... It's not a zero sum game either, it raisies everyone up... My colleagues are all killing it. There's a guy down the road who's toured with Chris Potter. In NYC that would be the guy in your building lol...

You don't go to NYC unless you are serious, but from what I know, you hang on in there, it's the place to be. Tough for sure... but if you are in a badass environment, you will be a badass,

Yes, of course, I agree it's the wrong mind set. I'm only kidding. I'm sure there are many great things about being a musician in these cities that attract the worlds best.
And I'm sure there are times even those big shot players second guess themselves, wonder if they are really as good as people assume they are. So everybody has to try and find a healthy way of dealing with the competitive nature of scene and focus on their own reasons for doing what they are doing.

[christianm77]

Yes, of course, I agree it's the wrong mind set. I'm only kidding. I'm sure there are many great things about being a musician in these cities that attract the worlds best.
And I'm sure there are times even those big shot players second guess themselves, wonder if they are really as good as people assume they are. So everybody has to try and find a healthy way of dealing with the competitive nature of scene and focus on their own reasons doing what they are doing.

I think extreme bloody mindedness is an underrated quality in the jazz guitarist. Talent is cheap. Insane, unreasoning inability to accept an easier path is rare.

[ragman1]

Yeah people get distracted by his virtuosity and he gets labeled as over technical etc... bummer

For once, Joe, I'm going to disagree with you (you'll live). I think it sounded too practised. I'm certain it wasn't spontaneous. Also, far too frilly for my ears. I'm not even sure it was jazz...

I know comparisons are odious but try this, for example.

[tamirgal]

I'm certain it wasn't spontaneous. Also, far too frilly for my ears. I'm not even sure it was jazz...

Jazz -

[christianm77]

ewe guys can't just keep ramming sheep puns in here, it's un herd of on a thread such as this.

4

The shear awfulness of some of the puns as well....

[don_oz]

I think that's the wrong mindset. You don't do this shit to make money. You put yourself in the environment anyway you can because you love this music and you want to be around it and learn it and prepared to do whatever you can to hang on in there.

It's not NYC, but in London I frequently see players that make me reconsider my choice of career... Except... It's GREAT! You know, to be in an inspiring environment. I would play worse if I lived in the sticks. Sorry, but I would.... There's a level. You step up to it. And the young kids coming up... It's not a zero sum game either, it raisies everyone up... My colleagues are all killing it. There's a guy down the road who's toured with Chris Potter. In NYC that would be the guy in your building lol...

You don't go to NYC unless you are serious, but from what I know, you hang on in there, it's the place to be. Tough for sure... but if you are in a badass environment, you will be a badass,

That's the truth man, I finished my Degree in jazz last summer, and my next stop is masters in NYC, if I don't get in anywhere in NYC, I'll still go to the states and study in another city, the music is happening everywhere.

[don_oz]

here's some more on half step rules, and a small mention of the chords barry talks about using from the guide tones of a Dominant chord. This sheet was more rushed so sorry if the application examples aren't that great.

[tamirgal]

here's some more on half step rules, and a small mention of the chords barry talks about using from the guide tones of a Dominant chord. This sheet was more rushed so sorry if the application examples aren't that great.

Thanks!
Nice summary. The chord found on the 7 of the dominant is often missed when discussing Barry’s stuff. But listening to his recordings, you can hear him outline it more than anything else. And on the tritone it sounds like magic

[christianm77]

Thanks!
Nice summary. The chord found on the 7 of the dominant is often missed when discussing Barry’s stuff. But listening to his recordings, you can hear him outline it more than anything else. And on the tritone it sounds like magic

Wot? That's my favourite sound.

Nice handout ozzy....

[tamirgal]

Wot? That's my favourite sound.

Nice handout ozzy....

Reading your posts about Barry I’m not surprised I learned allot from you

[don_oz]

Thanks!
Nice summary. The chord found on the 7 of the dominant is often missed when discussing Barry’s stuff. But listening to his recordings, you can hear him outline it more than anything else. And on the tritone it sounds like magic

Wot? That's my favourite sound.

Nice handout ozzy....

Cheers guys, glad you're liking it. I'll try and do more!

Ozzy

[joe2758]

here's some more on half step rules, and a small mention of the chords barry talks about using from the guide tones of a Dominant chord. This sheet was more rushed so sorry if the application examples aren't that great.

“But what about the tritone?!” lol

[don_oz]

“But what about the tritone?!” lol

[edh]

Thanks don, I appreciate it.

[rlrhett]

There is one aspect of BH harmonizing that I am still struggling to understand. I'm sure it's been covered a dozen times, but I don't seem to find a succinct answer. How does a dominant sound figure into BH harmonizing? I understand that we are not supposed to see "2-5"s, but rather as "movement" of voices leading from one major or minor tonality to another using the dim/6 scales. But given that a lot of music will often lead into a major or minor tonality using a dominant sound, or sit on a dominant sound, or go from dominant to dominant, there must be somewhere BH talks directly about the role of dominants in harmonizing. Isn't there?

I understand that you can form a min6/dim scale on the "important minor" of a dominant, and that another is to be found built on the b2nd. I can hear how these min6 lead smoothly the same place as the dominant would. But it doesn't sound the same as a dominant chord.

I can also see that the dim7 chords that fall between the inversions of the 6/min6 chords are just one half step from the V7 chord. Just lower the b6 and you get it. Does BH consider V7 chords to be dim7 with a "borrowed note"?

In any case, I'm sure we all have our theories. But does anyone have this straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? Is there a video somewhere where he speaks specifically to dominant chords in his universe of harmony?

[grahambop]

If you want a straight dominant sound use the Dom7/dim scale, it’s in Alan’s book. Also there’s a Dom7b5/dim scale.

The min6 on the 5th is just the same as a dominant with a 9th.

The min6 on the flat 2 is an altered dominant.

All dominant really.

As I recall, page 19 of Alan's book explains those min6 applications for dominant.

[christianm77]

Right, off to class. :-)

[don_oz]

Right, off to class. :-)

See you there!

[rlrhett]

If you want a straight dominant sound use the Dom7/dim scale, it’s in Alan’s book. Also there’s a Dom7b5/dim scale.

The min6 on the 5th is just the same as a dominant with a 9th.

The min6 on the flat 2 is an altered dominant.

All dominant really.

As I recall, page 19 of Alan's book explains those min6 applications for dominant.

Yes, thank you. But as we discussed in the study group on the book, Alan's focus is on ALTERNATIVES to playing a dominant 7 chord. Both section 2.4 that you reference and 2.6 are all about how NOT to play the dominant 7 chord using either the min6 or dim7 chords. He never actually discusses using the dominant 7 chord or the dom7/dim scale he enigmatically lays out without ever demonstrating or explaining.

To my ear a rootless G9 sounds very different to a G7, especially in a bluesy context. I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?

[Tal_175]

Yes, thank you. But as we discussed in the study group on the book, Alan's focus is on ALTERNATIVES to playing a dominant 7 chord. Both section 2.4 that you reference and 2.6 are all about how NOT to play the dominant 7 chord using either the min6 or dim7 chords. He never actually discusses using the dominant 7 chord or the dom7/dim scale he enigmatically lays out without ever demonstrating or explaining.

To my ear a rootless G9 sounds very different to a G7, especially in a bluesy context. I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?

I don't have the book with me but I remember in Alan's book in the same section that he talks about playing 6/min6 diminishes from the 5th and b7th of the dominant, he also says that one can obtain the related diminished of the dominant by moving two voices of the important minor by a half step each. He says something along the lines of this opening the door for all the "family of dominants" that can be played over the dominant. So in this case the movement is between the minor 6'th and the members of the dominant family and the family amongst themselves.
Don't these cover the dominant sound?

[grahambop]

I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?

To be honest I don't really worry myself about grand unified theories, I just want to get on and play. I find the examples I listed are all very handy options for addressing a dominant function.

Actually I find 'straight dominants' a bit too vanilla, most jazz musicians seem to play them with a 9th or a 13th or even a #11 added.

I'll leave it to someone more expert than I to say what Barry's 'dominant theory' might be!

[christianm77]

Ok Barry said ‘Melodic Minor’ today. We played it up and down and everything. I have it on a recording if anyone wants proof.

Oz is all over this shit. I need a lie down. :-)

[joe2758]

yeah man post the recording

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok Barry said ‘Melodic Minor’ today. We played it up and down and everything. I have it on a recording if anyone wants proof.

Oz is all over this shit. I need a lie down. :-)

Interesting. Up and down from the ROOT?What contexts was he talking about for application of it?

[joe2758]

There is one aspect of BH harmonizing that I am still struggling to understand. I'm sure it's been covered a dozen times, but I don't seem to find a succinct answer. How does a dominant sound figure into BH harmonizing? I understand that we are not supposed to see "2-5"s, but rather as "movement" of voices leading from one major or minor tonality to another using the dim/6 scales. But given that a lot of music will often lead into a major or minor tonality using a dominant sound, or sit on a dominant sound, or go from dominant to dominant, there must be somewhere BH talks directly about the role of dominants in harmonizing. Isn't there?

I understand that you can form a min6/dim scale on the "important minor" of a dominant, and that another is to be found built on the b2nd. I can hear how these min6 lead smoothly the same place as the dominant would. But it doesn't sound the same as a dominant chord.

I can also see that the dim7 chords that fall between the inversions of the 6/min6 chords are just one half step from the V7 chord. Just lower the b6 and you get it. Does BH consider V7 chords to be dim7 with a "borrowed note"?

In any case, I'm sure we all have our theories. But does anyone have this straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? Is there a video somewhere where he speaks specifically to dominant chords in his universe of harmony?

This is the thing I always end up talking about when everyone else is stuck on the 6th diminished scales. Straight up dom 7ths are huge. The whole point of "sisters and Brothers." It all centers around the diminished. I saw a video on youtube where he says the first movement we should learn is a dimished chord with any note raised, lower that note back to the diminished chord, lower the same note down a half step to form a dom 7 chord. Then why note lower the fifth of that chord? after all, the dom diminished and b5 diminished scales are just as important as the 6th dim scales.

When I'm doing an arrangement and I need a chord pulling to the 1 I
1. decide if I want a biii dim family chord or a related diminished sound.
2. decide which of my 4 dominant chords I want to arrive to of that family
3. Do I want to lower the 5th

example: raise two notes of the dim chord to create a maj 6th chord. Lower them to diminished. lower a note to form a dominant chord. Lower it's fifth. resovle. That's nice movement