What are you thinking about when you play / improvise ?

[jbucklin]

I find that a lot of guitar players are down on Tal. My favorite guitar player of all time, Jim Hall, was very good friends with Tal Farlow. Not only was Jim quite fond of him as a person, he thought and spoke highly of him as a musician. Quite an endorsement I'd say, as Jim Hall held a very high standard when it came to other jazz players.

[jbucklin]

Listening to "Chromatic Palette" right now. Thanks pubylakeg! Sounds great.

[pauln]

I'm thinking how familiar this question looks to me,
as if I had written it myself...

What are you thinking about when you play? - Guitar Forums

[targuit]

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As regards 'being in the moment' being too late, in reality if you are 'in the moment' in terms of creating music, I think you are 'anticipating' your melodic destination. It is like singing "happy birthday" - how many of us have to "think about" singing the melody? It somehow wells up in the context of the harmony, yet some guitarists would struggle to play a CM version of Happy Birthday. If you sing the melody, you don't really 'aim' for the note, unless you can't sing well, in which you case you miss the notes like taking a bad swing at a curve ball. In a way listening to yourself sing or play a melody is like a servo mechanism. Normally the machine works every time. You monitor it and anticipate the next step in the process, but you only notice it if something goes wrong.

[gggomez]

Excellent question. Cuts to the core of all those hours I have wasted not taking first hand advice from some masters.

I have been to 2 master classes. In the mid 80's Joe Pass and late 90's John Scofield.

This question was asked at both.

Scofield answer I am not thinking of anything I am just listening and going where the music takes me.

Joe Pass was quite terse. "Thinking? Sing don't think. You should always be singing always. Who here does not sing?"

Anytime I play something half descent it is because I have taken this advice. It reminds me I must practice this more. Sorry, always.

By extension I guess this means you have to know the changes to such an extent you feel it, obviously you have to be able to sing the changes. I assume this has to be so ingrained that it is almost the blank canvas. I think this is also why Bill Evans says learn small amounts in depth not lots of things without depth. Thinking out aloud here and thinking OK I should stick with the blues form and learn only a couple of standards 'cause I must take the above advice.

[Reg]

If you don't have anything to think about... it's not going to happen. If you don't understand what your thinking about, again, it's not going to happen. If you've put in the time and actually understand whatever you need to understand to be thinking about what your playing.... then the thinking aspect is simple. But if you don't have the technical skills to perform, how would you expect to be able to play what your thinking about?

I think all the time... it's like having a conversation while walking with a friend etc... generally you don't need to stair at your feet while walking... I'm not going to keep going down the analogy path...

If you need all your concentration to just get out the notes of some rehearsed or memorized solo, etc... Thinking is not going to be an option... but as you develop as a musician, and Form, the spatial thing begins to become one of the major aspects of performance. You begin to understand space and how music fits within that space... Form. Anyway, it becomes as simple as plug and play, or connect the targets dots. instead of playing one note to the next, you play phrases... and eventually you basically can hear a complete solo, at least a chorus... It becomes a pre-heard reference, you can change it or create new relationships, react and interact with the tune and the musicians... but it becomes very easy to also think, if you choose to.

[PMB]

Whenever this topic comes up, I'm reminded of Barney Kessel's response in an interview:

Q: "What goes through your mind when you’re improvising?
BK: "First of all, I think that any kind of introspection is a complete waste of time, and can be harmful - asking yourself why you did that, or what should you do next. You don’t have to explain anything, You just are. Let me tell you what doesn’t go through my mind: scales, the names of chords, arpeggios, licks, devices, formulas, what could possibly work as a superimposition, what John Coltrane would do at that point, what I could do now that will make people think I’m hip, what my jazz lessons through the mail tell me I could do here, what finger shapes I could use on the fingerboard that will sound real weird and eerie and will impress people. Those are some of the things I don’t think about. I don’t think about the notes in the chord, and I don’t think about the fretboard."

When I first read that, I thought it sounded like cranky BS (pretty interesting thoughts considering that the interview was published in a guitar magazine) but really, it's not that far from Parker's statement: "You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail."

[jbucklin]

I think that is a beautiful quote. One of the best lessons I've had in taming the voice of insecurity in my head is playing every Saturday night for the past 6 years in a duo with another guitarist who has massive chops. But from the first night we played together, it was instant chemistry, even ESP, if you will. He's more like George Benson, I'm more like Jim Hall (sorta). Our styles compliment each other very well and he is one of the best MUSICIANS I've ever played with. But, for a long time it felt like I was taking a beating, as all of my insecurities as as a guitar player would arise in my head (if I don't play fast, or outside, nobody will think I'm any good!). But now, after all this time, I am totally relaxed whenever we play, since I've realized more and more what I've always believed and taught---that jazz is very much a communal activity, and playing with others that know how to listen and respond to what you and others are doing is the most rewarding and exhilarating thing of all. It's truly a beautiful thing when everything clicks and minds become one and all "thinking" ceases. Very zen-like. As a dear drummer friend said long ago, "One thing you have to understand about this music: it's all about love".

[jovialspoon]

This article is relevant (see the section titled 'music')
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

[NRJay]

I'm thinking how familiar this question looks to me,
as if I had written it myself...

What are you thinking about when you play? - Guitar Forums

Aah yes, I know, I'm busted

It's actually Paul's question that I repeated here.
He just put it so eloquently that I could not improve on it.

I also didn't want to cover the first post with a big story about how and why I repeated his post. I was afraid it would distract from the question itself. So that's why I'm setting the record straight this way.

Anyways, thanks to all for the impressive amount of replies. It's far beyond my expectations and has opened my eyes quite a bit!

[destinytot]

This article is relevant (see the section titled 'music')
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

"The free bird leaps
on the back of the wind
and floats downstream
till the current ends
and dips his wings
in the orange sun rays
and dares to claim the sky.

But a bird that stalks
down his narrow cage
can seldom see through
his bars of rage
his wings are clipped and
his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing.

The caged bird sings
with fearful trill
of the things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom

The free bird thinks of another breeze
and the trade winds soft through the sighing trees
and the fat worms waiting on a dawn-bright lawn
and he names the sky his own.

But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing

The caged bird sings
with a fearful trill
of things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom."

Maya Angelou

[jbucklin]

Great article, jovialspoon. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I had no idea that studies had been done on this phenomenon. I have used the terms, zone and flow, many times, however.

And destinytot, I read that Angelou poem (I have that book) long ago but never made the connection to the freedom that is found in playing jazz. Thanks for posting that gem!

[destinytot]

Great article, jovialspoon. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I had no idea that studies had been done on this phenomenon. I have used the terms, zone and flow, many times, however.

And destinytot, I read that Angelou poem (I have that book) long ago but never made the connection to the freedom that is found in playing jazz. Thanks for posting that gem!

[Boston Joe]

One of my ex-wife's professors in grad school was a friend and booster of Csikszentmihalyi (pronounced "CHICKS-a-ma-hi). He had a great presentation about "flow" and how it related to his own life. It definitely influenced how I think about these things.

[NoReply]

I was on one of the Steve Coleman conference calls yesterday and something discussed made me think of this thread.

We were talking about one of Steve's concepts that someone wrote a paper about. On the call someone was asked about the concept and thinking about it when playing. Steve said you don't think about it, you practice it until it's in you and it just comes out. Steve mentioned students and how they come in and ask about II-V's or some advanced topic, but they can't even play a Blues. That you have to start at the beginning and work on the fundamental till they are in you and again come out with thought. Again as I've mentioned I hear other big name Jazz musicians talk about relating improvising to learning to talk. Steve talked about you learn to talk from simple words and build up vocabulary and internalize it so it just comes out when you talk. So in a conversation with someone you just think about the points you want to make not all the words. Improvising is the same.

I think this is related too. We touch on a lot classic jazz recordings and how the solos sound so perfect and that they were recorded that way, they were not edited together like many are done later. We discuss a number of musicians who's improvisations on record weren't edited what you heard what happened in the studio. Then Charlie Parker name came up. Steve said in an interview Chan Parker said that was something Charlie talked about a lot that he wanted all his playing to be like that a like he was talking and everything was the length , notes, phases it was a complete beginning to end. That is a hell of a lot of pressure to put on one's self, and you read about great musicians breaking down from the pressure to preform great all the time, not realizing it self imposed pressure. That's a whole different thing to think about on stage is each solo a perfect package.

[AlainJazz]

What do I think about when improvising? Honestly, nothing really. I'm very focused on listening and singing in my head. Mostly, I'm listening for the tonal center changes. That's about it.

[Nate Miller]

I find that a lot of guitar players are down on Tal.

then quite a lot of guitar players are out of their ****ing minds

[destinytot]

I was on one of the Steve Coleman conference calls yesterday and something discussed made me think of this thread.

We were talking about one of Steve's concepts that someone wrote a paper about. On the call someone was asked about the concept and thinking about it when playing. Steve said you don't think about it, you practice it until it's in you and it just comes out. Steve mentioned students and how they come in and ask about II-V's or some advanced topic, but they can't even play a Blues. That you have to start at the beginning and work on the fundamental till they are in you and again come out with thought. Again as I've mentioned I hear other big name Jazz musicians talk about relating improvising to learning to talk. Steve talked about you learn to talk from simple words and build up vocabulary and internalize it so it just comes out when you talk. So in a conversation with someone you just think about the points you want to make not all the words. Improvising is the same.

I think this is related too. We touch on a lot classic jazz recordings and how the solos sound so perfect and that they were recorded that way, they were not edited together like many are done later. We discuss a number of musicians who's improvisations on record weren't edited what you heard what happened in the studio. Then Charlie Parker name came up. Steve said in an interview Chan Parker said that was something Charlie talked about a lot that he wanted all his playing to be like that a like he was talking and everything was the length , notes, phases it was a complete beginning to end. That is a hell of a lot of pressure to put on one's self, and you read about great musicians breaking down from the pressure to preform great all the time, not realizing it self imposed pressure. That's a whole different thing to think about on stage is each solo a perfect package.

Great Parker story. Morphology.

[Reg]

Some players don't think... some do, who cares... figure out what works for you... and make a choice. You can always change it later... when you get better.

The best points I heard... were more in the direction of listening and interacting etc... If your still at the level that you can really only listen or play what you hear or feel... whatever you want to call the nonthinking approach... you still have a ways to go with respect to performing jazz in ensemble settings.

Here's a little SC... might be a different reference when talking about improv