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Anybody else have this issue? Let's say I'm soloing using mainly single notes, and I want to grab a dim7 chord when it comes up in the changes. Let's say it's a Cdim7. Now, I do know that Cdim7 = C Eb Gb A and I know that dim chords repeat every 3 frets and that Cdim7 = Ebdim7=Gbdim7=Adim7.
My problem arises when I want to grab that Cdim7 chord, it seems to take too much mental effort (and take up too much time) for me to think, "Oh, I'm not near a C, but I could grab the nearest Eb, Gb, or A instead... ok, here's a Gb, but then which grip to use to complete the rest of the chord at that location? Too bad, I already grabbed the Gb with the wrong finger and I can't make the rest of the chord now..." By the time I think all of that, the moment is long gone.
So I'd be interested in knowing what goes through your minds when you're in this situation and any tips for success in this mission?
Thanks,
J.
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12-06-2015 01:05 AM
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The processes I used when I went through it:
Originally Posted by jasaco
1. It's the same grip for all 4 chords for each string set. There are in fact, only three diminished chords: C diminished, D-flat diminished and D diminished. All these will have the same grips. All three chords will get you all 12 notes of the diminished scale.
2. You'll find that the same dim chord with The same Grip reappears at the second, fourth, flat sixth and major seventh scale degree of each key.
3. Take a key and take a string set (1-4, 2-5, 3-6, the two drop 3 string sets, i.e., 5 string sets). Play all the diminished chords associated with that string set, from the nut to the 12th fret, systematically for each string set. Ascending and descending, about 10,000 times .
You'll find you will be going from second To The fourth to the flat sixth to the M7 of the key as you go up and down the neck in terms of the lowest note in the string set for each chord .
4. When you finish one string set (eg, 1-4), go to the next string set (2-5) and practice the four diminished chords from the nut to the 12th fret for that key . ( for example, in the key of C, you would play D diminished , F dim, Ab dim and B dim--- all 4 diminished chords have these same 4 notes, and are the same court of course )
5. No think of the first available diminished chord you played on the second string set . Two of the four notes are the same ones in the same location as two of the four notes in the nearest available diminished chord on the first string set . Figure out which ones are common, which ones are not, and what fingers have to move, in order to transition between string sets . Name the notes, and practice transitioning from one chord to the other, for one string set to the other stringset.
Note: I practiced all this using Ronnie Ben Hurr's video and book, "Chordability ", which explains the Barry Harris system of diminished harmony. I'm sure that Andrew Kingstone's renowned book that has been discussed here Will also explain this process .
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I look at it differently, but what don't I look at differently I'm all about keeping things simple. So most the time not all use diminished arpeggios on Dominant chords for the 7b9 sound. So for that I know a diminish arp or chord I can start it from the b9, 3, 5, b7 of the dominant. That usually give me a close note to play my symmetric diminished from.
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Okay, I miss read it slightly: you are looking for the arpeggios ? There's no shortcuts . Just lots of repetitive work. Except you know it you're just going up in minor thirds. Minor thirds on the neck are easy to visualize . So are tritones. The other interval is a diminished 7th, which is enharmonic to a major sixth.
You will have to exhaust the possibilities in terms of your starting note, whether it starts on the first, second, third or fourth finger on the left hand. If the root starts on the second finger , the next successive interval (m3), has to be played with a small stretch of the first finger on the next success of string .
If you are practicing a C diminished arpeggio, start with the note that name is the chord C. Start your arpeggios with the first finger. Then start them with the second finger. Then start them with the third finger (not common and most difficult). Then start them with the fourth finger . Each finger you start at will present different problems and issues on how to get to the next note.
For example, Playing a minor third distance starting from the first finger is a four fret stretch on the same string to the 4th finger. Playing a minor thirds distance starting from the second finger will force you to use the first finger for the minor third note On the next string . ( going from finger to the finger on successive strings ). Playing a minor third starting with the fourth finger will cause you to use the second finger on the next success of string . Etc.
The underlying technical issue becomes: left hand finger independence . The goal is to play an interval starting from any finger . The best way of doing this is to play the entire diminished scale ( all 12 notes played chromatically ) starting with each of the four fingers. You will find that you will need six fret coverage at any given moment. Practically, this means that your first and fourth fingers have to stretch one additional fret down and Up, respectively.
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Orientate yourself using the top note ( the melody). When you play a note on the high e string with your pinky to which you want to add a diminished arp or chord, the shape is already there under your fingers. On the second string, same thing -> pinky. On the third string, third finger. Etc. just keep the shapes of the diminished chord always in your head.
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I think you just need to memorize by rote, the three diminished 7 chords:
C Eb Gb A
C# E G Bb
D F Ab B
And their enharmonic equivalents.
Use a flashcard program. I remember doing that when I was trying to learn key sigs, degrees and musical spelling. Also just writing it out over and over.
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And when you miss, just slide up or down a fret and you'll be just fine! o)
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When you say "not a near a C", what do you mean ? How near do you want for comfort or convenience ? Originally Posted by jasaco
Here is what I do: find the nearest C vertically (across the fretboard) and put it in a diminished shape, it can be on any string near your fret position. Diminished shapes are easier to memorize because of the symmetry and repetition.
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I look at it like docbop as a dominant chord with a b9. More along a functional path, as it's leading to something. So Cdim is B7b9. So you can use the minor third rule here: D7, F7, Ab7 also; whatever works to get you where you're going!
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practice is the only thing to infuse this kind of stuff in your playing...a separate study of symmetric harmony may help you..
my approach to this type of thing would be..know a dim arp and chord form below and above the root of ANY chord..example
Using Cmajor..on strings 543 /Bdim chord BFAb then arp--Cmajor chord then arp CEG --Db Dim chord then arp--Db E G Dminor chord then arp DFA/ EbDim Chord then arp / Eminor chord then arp EGB.....etc for the remaining chords in a key.. do this on all string sets in as many keys as possible...
now go back and use 4 note chords Major 7ths etc and diminished 7ths .. so now you have four note arpeggios...advantage to doing this is you have a direct relation from the dim chord acting as a resolve or passing chord (which are the two most used functions of the chord) and a direct connection to a chord above and below it.. again symmetric harmony at work..whatever dim chord/arp works for Dmi7 will work for Fmajor 7..and to expand that logic the same will work for Ab Major7 & F#min7/ Bmaj7& Abmin7/Dbmaj7 & Bbmin7/Emaj7 & Db min7
this is a bit much at first..but if practiced in all keys and string sets you will never get lost trying to find a starting point for dim chords or arps
hope this helpsLast edited by wolflen; 12-06-2015 at 04:58 PM.
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You are always near a C on at least one of the strings. If you know several dim7 voicings (inversions) grab the nearest one (or best voiced one) that contains that C. That's a seat-of-the-pants way to get the grip in a hurry without thinking through how to spell the chord. It's especially handy for dyslexic guitarists. ;-) Originally Posted by jasaco
Last edited by KirkP; 12-06-2015 at 07:18 PM.
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Learn the way they move. Learn lots of tunes with dim 7 chords in.
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Play the diminished chord based on any chord tone of the dominant 7th chord except the root. So if it's a D7, I grab the diminished chord shape that includes the rest of the 7th chord. I actually think of the chord shapes of the CAGED system, and just hit the diminished chord of the shape that doesn't include the root.
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Diminished chords can be beastly. The process of figuring out the relationship of the melody note on the page to chord always seems to take too long for me. Melodic spellings of enharmonics are at odds with chord symbols VERY often with diminished. Too many iterations with all enharmonic spellings of chord tones, extensionsf and tensions.
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Looks like Matt can relate to my current mental dilemma. Thanks to you all for some great suggestions on how best to deal with it. Don't let me cut off discussion, however. Always interested in more ideas.
Thanks,
J.
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Yeah. I've spent some time thinking about how to organize spelling of diminished chords, especially reading melodies against them. The thing is they're really not functional in terms of the key a lot of times, they're so symmetrical, and it almost doesn't matter what the enharmonic spelling is in a lot of contexts, beyond satisfying convenience or music theory obsessiveness. Originally Posted by jasaco
I would love to know thoughts of more experienced players who've worked through this already as well. No offense to anyone, I just feel like there are several different questions being answered here , and mine's probably slightly different.
My own thoughts are that I probably just need to memorize one default spelling for each, since there are only three, and then just convert enharmonically to whatever is happening with melody or key center etc. You really just have to be totally down with mixing flats and sharps in spelling because of inconsistencies between chord accidentals and melody accidentals.
A lot of it my mind is a problem with form as well. They just don't come up enough in tunes to get them but just playing through as you happen upon them, the way students always seem to struggle on a tunes B section (AABA), and don't know why.. I'd think that you would have to spend some dedicated time just reading through snippets of tunes with diminished in them, (not whole tunes). It's something I always tell myself I need to work on, but haven't gotten around to it. I'd think that the problem can only be solved in isolation like that though.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-07-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
What threw me for a long time (might still) is people would always say two types of diminished chords functioning and non-functioning, but they always seem to end the concussion at that point and not explain the terms in relation to diminished. Then once seeing diminished is used either as a passing chord or approach chord it statted making sense.
I remember back in music school they said most diminished chords really weren't diminished they were dominants. The explanation was old sheet music for standards was done at a time when tenor guitar, banjo, and ukulele were popular instrument of the day also many people buy sheet music were basic self taught musicians. So putting 7b9 and other altered dominants on the sheet music would baffle them, so they put diminished chords instead. So that is what we were told back then.
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I know this is not the most theory based answer, but take the basic grip xx4545, or any other you are familiar with. In many cases, when the melody not is on an A, for most keys, you can get away with playing that chord, then moving it up or down, which should get you near another melody note.
This is quick and easy; once you get the sound in your ear, you can place it in better scenarios.
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Maybe this is hurting me in the long run, but I've almost never thought in terms of spelling diminished chords. I always think in terms of degrees. Like a dim chord that's functioning as a dominant b9 is just the dominant plus the b9, minus the root. A dim chord thats functioning as a passing chord is usually just a major chord with the root moving up a half step. Stuff like that. If I try to think in terms of enharmonics, it's just too much to hold in my head. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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This might be ridiculous but can't you just play a diminished fifth interval then another one and even a third b5..until you hear a chord Tone after the diminished chord ( a chord tone from the resolution chord of the Dim 7 )? Originally Posted by jasaco
Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-04-2016 at 09:48 PM.
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