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It is interesting how practice needs to be fun for many people.
They need to practice things that are musical, or maybe allow them to express themselves - or they lose interests.
The way I combat this is with my Band in a Box backing track. Now that my kids are getting their own interests and giving me time to practice (a little), I can plug into my little Vox DA-5 (I am loving that little thing, these days) and practice the exercise with the appropriate chord in the background.
For me, it makes it fun because if I want to take off, I will try different sequences and other things with the pool of notes in the given exercise, and I can hear how it sounds with the chord. Eventually, I add another chord and work on the transition. I also use Richie's etudes as an easy way out when I get lost.
I have a pianist relative who can take those darn exercises and actually make some interesting music out of just 16 notes. That challenge makes it fun. Like Pat Martino says, make the guitar your toy.
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02-10-2016 10:06 PM
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This entire course is all about making original melodies with interesting rhythms within the blues format without using the cliché that is The blues scale per se, i.e., making interesting melodies in the blues format by playing changes.
If you can't have fun practicing that, I'm not sure what to say, honestly . The entire jazz edifice is constructed on this foundation.
I guess you could go directly to Anthony Braxton and forget everything about blues and straight ahead jazz.
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Add me to the list of "drop outs".
No big deal, for me. I've taken single lessons that cost me more than $90.
I have the materials available for a while. Pretty sure I can get more than a few things from them.
Like a few others, I was "sold" by the enthusiasm of the thread. "best bebop online"...
Well, it didn't take too long to figure out it wasn't for me.
As an aside, I'm working on Barry Greene's stuff.
Seems better suited to my learning style. YMMV
I get excited about practicing every time I watch one of his lessons!
Different strokes...
Cheers,
Ron
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I don't think there's anything wrong with taking things really slowly with Richie's course and continuing to practice other things. The course certainly doesn't cover all of the stuff that a well-rounded player would need to practice. So I continue to learn tunes, improve my comping, noodle, etc. and have simply incorporated Richie's approach into my overall haphazard schedule. For me, the structure alone has been worth the price of admission.
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I have a sense that this material like any other depends on where you are starting from and what you hope to achieve and your personal level of realism. I started as someone who could play a few learned by rote/tab memorized bits and pieces . Bits of Goodbye Pork Pie hat / pieces of this scale or that scale /some clever chords and a few trick licks and a bunch of bluesy that . What I hoped to achieve was to learn a fretboard structural foundation that would allow me to understand where those licks/chords/bits and pieces that I liked came from, what they were doing functionally and how I could use them when I wanted to make stuff up/noodle/improvise.
So after two months and honestly 12-14 hrs a week what have I learned and yes I have skipped ahead/sideways a bit - well I can now navigate a basic blues 1 IV V through the changes all over the neck stepping a little out and back in - that seems simple I'm sure but I just played over before. The fingerings seem simple enough- I don't have big hands and can make them all without visits to a therapist. I've learned that I like thinking in intervals- Richie seems keen on thinking in intervals - Ionian+ b7=Mixo + b3=Dorian - raised7=MelMin... Harm Maj= Ionian +b6 and so on.... I am now on the way to being able to on the fly construct/see these different scales in any position- I like this because I am beginning to see overlays/transitions/connections. I can do Dom7/min7/maj7 inversions in all zones on strings E/B/G/D so I have a new vocabulary of voicings and have a new basic conception of arpeggios and how they relate vertically and horizontally- that is new to me .
Am I having fun- you bet- I was just looking at/playing a transcription of All Blues and realized one of the sounds I really liked from Miles was his use of lines that used a b3/3 combo Mixo/Dorian overlay- so it wasn't one or the other tonality it was both - simple stuff I bet for most of you but new to me to know that is what is going on.
I hope if Richie reads this he is not offended but I'm not actually that interested in bebop per se -I think it is shame the thread title might obscure the real value of what Richie is presenting . I just think the material and conceptual framework it is presented within works for me where I am at and is propelling me to where I want to be- what more could I ask for ?
Will
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Yes sir. Excellent analysis. The secret weapon of this course is that it really does help you solidify the fingerboard. Despite all the fingerings, positions, etc., the fingerboard is slowly but surely becoming one single entity in terms of navigation.
Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
I have a sense that this material like any other depends on where you are starting from and what you hope to achieve and your personal level of realism. I started as someone who could play a few learned by rote/tab memorized bits and pieces . Bits of Goodbye Pork Pie hat / pieces of this scale or that scale /some clever chords and a few trick licks and a bunch of bluesy that . What I hoped to achieve was to learn a fretboard structural foundation that would allow me to understand where those licks/chords/bits and pieces that I liked came from, what they were doing functionally and how I could use them when I wanted to make stuff up/noodle/improvise.
So after two months and honestly 12-14 hrs a week what have I learned and yes I have skipped ahead/sideways a bit - well I can now navigate a basic blues 1 IV V through the changes all over the neck stepping a little out and back in - that seems simple I'm sure but I just played over before. The fingerings seem simple enough- I don't have big hands and can make them all without visits to a therapist. I've learned that I like thinking in intervals- Richie seems keen on thinking in intervals - Ionian+ b7=Mixo + b3=Dorian - raised7=MelMin... Harm Maj= Ionian +b6 and so on.... I am now on the way to being able to on the fly construct/see these different scales in any position- I like this because I am beginning to see overlays/transitions/connections. I can do Dom7/min7/maj7 inversions in all zones on strings E/B/G/D so I have a new vocabulary of voicings and have a new basic conception of arpeggios and how they relate vertically and horizontally- that is new to me .
Am I having fun- you bet- I was just looking at/playing a transcription of All Blues and realized one of the sounds I really liked from Miles was his use of lines that used a b3/3 combo Mixo/Dorian overlay- so it wasn't one or the other tonality it was both - simple stuff I bet for most of you but new to me to know that is what is going on.
I hope if Richie reads this he is not offended but I'm not actually that interested in bebop per se -I think it is shame the thread title might obscure the real value of what Richie is presenting . I just think the material and conceptual framework it is presented within works for me where I am at and is propelling me to where I want to be- what more could I ask for ?
Will
I found that my identification of chord tones greatly improved, and the ability to go to any of the chord tones at will, either directly or via approach or neighbor tones or chromatics, improved a bit too.
I'm glad someone else got the same stuff out of it that I did. Although honestly I didn't spend nearly as much time as you did. One of the synergistic effects of improving fingerboard knowledge is that tunes are easier to learn.
So indirectly, the increased fingerboard knowledge I gained from studying Richies concepts has improved my ability to play tunes, not just changes .
Indeed, none of this is earth shattering him for even revolutionary, but the incremental gains, knowledge, and application of knowledge are nothing to sneeze at.
I think you will find that the last chapter on bird blues really puts it together nicely on how to transition from fingering to fingering, chord tone to chord tone, using important pivot points.
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I too have joined the ranks of dropouts.
My father always said that would happen if I didn't "put that banjo down son"....
....ha ha....sorry Dad .....still plunkin' that darned thing 50+ years later.
Even made a living with it on and off.
I have nothing but respect for Richie's teaching and the immense amount of work that
would have gone into developing the material that he offers.
But for me, I found I was juggling this module with that fingering number and this bebop
calisthenic etc etc....that I ended having to write lists of what fingering number was what
and so on that my patience ran out.
Time is tight at my age and frankly when I took the time to see why I was avoiding the lessons
I had to admit that it simply is not suited my learning style.
Like RonD I have resumed my lessons with Barry Greene.
Great lessons, well delivered and he is respondent to requests to cover a particular topic and recently
upgraded the tech side of his videos....slow down function, drop the res rate for those like myself who
do not enjoy the fastest of internet connections.
Sorry to boost one teacher on a thread given over to another ....if you think this is inappropriate
I'll take my post down forthwith.
Go you Zellonistas ..... may you bop with the best.
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It's not a problem. It would be one thing if you came here just to dog Richie and drum up business for Barry but that's not what you're doing. You gave Richie a chance---you worked with his stuff and found it didn't suit your present needs. That's your experience and that's on-target here. Originally Posted by Moonray
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I also belong to Barry Greens site, but he doesn't teach theory, so if you don't understand certain things you won't get it from him...But He does have great lessons and tremendous amount of info...But again if you want to actually understand how to target notes, approach notes, enclose, chromatic and the rest of it, that's what Richie teaches!!! Just my 2 cents
ken
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Played through some this morning. Great stuff still. I think it's interesting , and worth noting, that NSJ talked about PULLING FROM IT , going out of order, skipping around etc. I guess I kind of do the same.
I guess I always viewed it as a resource mainly. All the material is there , stuff you'd get from Jerry Coker, Bert Ligon etc. kind of patterns you need to get at eventually anyway. Take what you like from it.
Once you know where basic degrees of chords are, of course , it's fine to skip to module three for example or whatever. I'll agree with others that some of the calisthenics can get tedious. For me, it's as simple as modifying it by ONLY targeting the third instead of the third and seventh. Do the same for the seventh, then combine them.
I also modify the rhythm so that the TARGET is always on the same part of the beat, even when changing between different arp forms. Honestly, I think that's probably the most helpful one for me. I think Richie would do especially well to modify that one aspect in the material, just by adding a pick up where necessary etc.
Of course, when I did some of this, before Richie, I always wanted to apply to real tunes immediately. Richie, Jimmy , and probably Ligon as well, all start with blues, on dominant seventh chords, because it's the most simple musically.
However, I think this is a big hurdle on guitar, because of the multiple position issue. It's just hard to put off applying to tunes until you get all of the stuff down on ALL chord forms. For me, personally, this will probably be modified to look more like this: learn basic targeting patterns for the 3rd on all four chord groups, major, minor, dominant, m7b5. Apply, as études to actual tunes. Then, the same for the other chord tones. This was my own personal hack when using the Jimmy Amadie book..... on a very basic level, using a few simple forms, but it was really great practice and mentally stimulating.
Of course, in THAT book, you really only had dominant and minor seventh chords laid out for targeting, systematically, like Richie Zellon does. Richie just has everything laid out. Really great work.
The next logical step, for me, would seem to be the calisthenic approach of combining two targets the way that Richie lays it out.
This is just my own personal take on some of this. Learning how to apply things to tunes is hugely important . Once you really learn to apply everything well, almost any exercise is enjoyable , and practice isn't tedious.
Might be cool to discuss applying patterns to tunes as études, generally. It's great stuff. It doesn't feel like practice really.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-11-2016 at 11:23 AM.
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It’s more like Richie gives us a chance rather than we give him or his course a chance. Drop out, set it aside for later, whatever …, everybody’s circumstances are different and it’s quite understandable. For me, it would be premature to drop out as I enjoy the course too much, and it’s only a prelude to vol.2. Richie has posted the first part of “Dissecting the Masters” in module 8 and that’s where the meat of the course begins.
Yes, I’m peeking ahead from time to time even though I’m already behind the schedule. I know it may take me substantially longer than the currently allotted 15 months, but that doesn’t bother me. All material is downloadable so you can save it for later, anyway. I intend to get vol.2 and then the chord melody course Richie will release.
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Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
That material in Module 8 is absolute gold.
i watched the 20 minute lesson dissecting the 2 measure Bird solo on Dewey Square. Amazing - so much can be learned from this.
Among other things, it reminded me as well how adept Bird was at seamlessly integrating 8th notes, quarter notes, 8th note triplets, and double time IN THE SAME MEASURE. Wow wow wow.
you could shed that basic rhythm the concept for a good long time.
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Oh, I am not dropping out of the course. I just comment that when I have such limited time to devote to practice these day (Job, Wife, Kids, etc). I find that Richie does not keep me interested enough to justify the vast amount of time required to master his method. I intend to see his course through.
My real concern is with this thread. Two members (whom will not be named) seem to be on Richies payroll the way they carry on about "The best Bebop course". Its not the best, its really good. Its not exciting, its dry. And its a method, not a definitive course in Bebop, a sub-genre of jazz. Anyone can play bebop without using the Heptatonic system, just as they can without using the CAGED system.
This course offers a method, not a instant jazz curriculum.
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really? Originally Posted by GingerMojo
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If your talking about me, I'm not paid, I just stumbled onto it in August.I've been a member of many sites online, Bruno, guitarlegend, Rick Stone...but in my opinion this is the most comprehensive course online for Improv. If you can point to an online course that's better I'll definitely take a look. I also belonged to Mark Elf's online course.
Ken
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That's basically how I approach this. It doesn't seem like work to me. Honestly, I haven't laboriously done hardly any of the exercises. What I did do was thoroughly absorb and internalize his basic concepts and The application of these concepts on the layout of the instrument-- going from chord to chord, systematizing the different ways of targeting, enclosures approach tones neighbor tones. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Once you really get these down, you can just make them your own and just pick up the guitar and just play. And it's fun because you're creating your own melodies, your own lines. The trick for me is to do better at synchronizing the enclosure events with the Target notes while also synchronizing the rhythmic variations (8th notes, triplets, double time-- I actually use a composite pneumatic system of the Western and Indian way of counting: 8th note is doo-ba, triple it is sometimes Ta-ke-da, sometimes trip-a-let, double time as always ta-ka-di-mi).
That and finding the pivot points in which to switch and transition fingerings.
'I don't know what that guy is so defensive about with regard to the comments about being paid by Richie: I've said repeatedly you can't learn jazz from a book or a course, and The original hype about the class was definitely hyperbole.
But that doesn't mean that it's not useful. The basic concepts are very useful, if one internalizes them.
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I never mentioned learning from a book, and the thread never had anything to do with learning from a book.
The title is the best ONLINE bebop course, If someone can point to another one online course that really spells it out like Richie, I would love to take a look at it. There might be better courses online, but to date I haven't found it..
P.S. Navdeep you should make a video of how your practicing these concepts I would love to see, maybe I can can get some ideas from it.
ken
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No need to be so defensive. All I was saying is that there is no one thing that magically teaches you Jazz, whether it be a book or an online course or a video. It takes a lot of work doing many things from multiple sources, over a period of years to become really proficient. And the best summary of those long protracted process is knowing a repertoire of hundreds of tunes. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
I never mentioned learning from a book, and the thread never had anything to do with learning from a book.
The title is the best ONLINE bebop course, If someone can point to another one online course that really spells it out like Richie, I would love to take a look at it. There might be better courses online, but to date I haven't found it..
P.S. Navdeep you should make a video of how your practicing these concepts I would love to see, maybe I can can get some ideas from it.
ken
In any event, I agree with you: I haven't found a better online course that is so specifically taught by such an articulate and thoughtful person who chooses his words very carefully In very thoroughly going over a very specific way of playing. I'm glad you brought it to my attention . Thank you. What I have learned from it has helped me a lot and organizing and mapping out the instrument. Although I admit I am not a member of any other online courses, so basically perhaps I have no way of comparing. All I'm saying is that this class is very worthwhile and I'm sorry that some people are giving up on it .
If I post a video, I'll post it on Richie's forum.
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Thanks Navdeep, I've learned more in 6 months then I have on other courses, but I am putting a lot time into as well. You are correct, becoming a very good Jazz player isn't easy at all .
Ken
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Looking for an alternate online jazz course?
Jazz Conception Company, this one talks talks to me (i have not seen it mentioned around here).
Firstly I was attracted to it because it is not guitar oriented, no talk of fingerings. More importantly what it is is a focus on improvisation, building lines, shaping lines in an improvisation and heavily routed in the blues. It offers simple concepts that improved my playing immediately (1000% more that Jimi's course did in 12 months) and it is pretty cheap:
Jazz Improvisation Videos | Instructional Videos | TrainingLast edited by gggomez; 02-11-2016 at 06:53 PM.
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Any insinuation that so-and-so gets paid to promote Richie’s course, or calling the heptatonic system of fingerings pseudo-masturbation is simply pathetic.
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I think the criticism over the fingerings is predicated on people's aversion against five fret stretches . Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
I would just add that learning to play five fret stretches are absolutely necessary . Regardless of whatever position you are on the fingerboard . How are you otherwise going to play a minor second In position?
I do understand that certain things--not in this course -- require six fret stretches . Like the Alan Holdsworth 4 note per string method .
Now that is too much for me. I can't do that .
But five fret stretches are absolutely necessary to learn on the guitar.
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Originally Posted by gggomez
I think you should start a new thread for this. Might be other people already familiar with it who could chime in.
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I checked it out, looks very well done
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I did too and agree with you. But I think that site deserves its own thread----if it's that good a deal, with those heavy-hitters praising it, it deserves more attention than it will get here. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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