Found the best bebop online jazz improv course to date

[NSJ]

This course is essentially how to play changes in a very systemstic way and on a practical level by targeting chord tones, without the academic "OMG OMG is the chord tone on a strong beat ?" Noise .

Since this is something that has been a big weakness for me, it's already helped a lot

[JazzinNY]

Well I am enjoying these posts. Have no plans to sign up for anything now -- too busy.

But Richie is getting great press from this, and I in no way understand the method from these posts!

[MarkRhodes]

This course is essentially how to play changes in a very systemstic way and on a practical level by targeting chord tones, without the academic "OMG OMG is the chord tone on a strong beat ?" Noise .

Since this is something that has been a big weakness for me, it's already helped a lot

It's helped me too. I'm taking it slow, working at it daily and appreciating what I'm learning and enjoying hints of great things to come. I'm learning the neck better than I've ever known it, and thinking in terms of intervals more than note names. Initially I thought this might move too slow but I realize if you get this very basic stuff right---and not just right in the sense of giving the right answer on a test but in the sense of having this knowledge at hand while playing---well, the sky's the limit from there.

[matt.guitarteacher]

It's helped me too. I'm taking it slow, working at it daily and appreciating what I'm learning and enjoying hints of great things to come. I'm learning the neck better than I've ever known it, and thinking in terms of intervals more than note names. Initially I thought this might move too slow but I realize if you get this very basic stuff right---and not just right in the sense of giving the right answer on a test but in the sense of having this knowledge at hand while playing---well, the sky's the limit from there.

Re. reciting the scale degrees: the thing that I've found is that it's not just a "good discipline" type thing that is probably good in the long term. It really helps a lot of understanding immediately, even outside of the course materials. I've neglected the course for a little while for some work on Min/maj7 and Maj7#5 arps from MM. Pretty tough in 7 positions, especially the Maj7#5's, because they don't really have as much reference to normal Maj7's if you derive them from MM fingerings....

Anyway, I found that the scale degree drill was really useful as a tool, and definitely not just in the "doing what I'm supposed to" category. I'm a little pissed at myself for not being more disciplined with doing this all along. It's not that difficult of an add-on and actually pays dividends almost immediately in understanding the fretboard. And far from slowing you down, it actually saves time in learning new arps from the get-go.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The 3 page comprehensive summary of permeations involving (a) chromatic and diatonic unprepared approaches, (b) diatonic enclosures, (c) chromatic enclosures and (d) mixed diatonic and chromatic enclosures associated with Modiule 3 has proved to be ridiculously invaluable.

I like how it says, "note: this is not an exhaustive summary. There are other possibilities." Ha!

Tons and tons and tons of melodic patterns once this is thoroughly absorbed, in the ear and in the fingers. I'm sure teachers have taught this, but has it ever been so succinctly posited in such a comprehensive way?

Add different rhythms to the same and create even more vocabulary, as Richie says. BOOM!

I don't have an enormous collection of material, but everything I've ever seen had been more generalized, including the other book specifically on targeting, written by a pianist.

"Succinct" is a good description, NSJ. Melodic script is a great short hand anyway, but especially so for guitar. The other books I've seen are pages and pages of notated lines or whatever. Seems mind numbingly tedious to present something which is illustrated so simply here. I think melodic script is a winner.

[NSJ]

I like how it says, "note: this is not an exhaustive summary. There are other possibilities." Ha!

I think melodic script is a winner.

agree as to the later. As to the former, he seems to exclude some of the octave – oriented movements ( In terms of total aggregate movement of the line ) when talking about unprepared diatonic approaches.

eg. b7-6-b7 (ascending )

3-4-3 (Descending )

EDIT he also omits b7-6-5 (ASC) and 3-4-5 (DESC)

[AlainJazz]

I haven't learned anything from this thread so I don't think there is a danger of divulging any proprietary information. I have this thread subscribed so I poke in once in a while. I have no intention of joining Richie's site after having watched his promo videos. It's not for me, but I'm happy if others are getting a lot out of it. That said, it's nice to see someone like Richie moving up and getting some recognition and free marketing through this thread. If left alone to just his forum and his promo videos, he would likely get less students joining up than if people see how satisfied you all are with the lessons on a public thread. Anyways, do as you like. Close the thread, or not. Just thought you might want to consider hat aspect.

[vintagelove]

Are people really complaining someone posted a fingering chart???


You folks realize those are just the seven positions of the major scale? I'd argue that isn't even the "right" way to learn them. On the B string, each of those positions should shift up allowing 3 notes to be played on each string. You still have his positions as well, but this method is more consistent (therefore easier to learn) and facilitates shifting into the next position easier.....

im not knocking this guy's sight or work, it's just odd to see people being protective of information, when it has been posted and discussed here many times. As for moving the discussion to his sight, that means the discussion misses the opportunity for other points of view to add to, or criticize (in a good way) the methods.

Lastly, just a word of caution. I'll start by saying I have no idea if his site does this, and this isn't aimed at his course in particular, just a reminder.

There is a definite value for knowing every inversion of every arpeggio, chord, scale,etc.. possible, and truthfully if you want to be a great jazz player, you need to know 90% of them. However, if you're at the point where you are struggling to get through the changes of Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, Out of Nowhere, GDS. etc... Learning all that stuff won't help much. If you're not applying what you're learning each lesson into tunes, there are other things you should be working on.


My 2 cents...

[hats]

I wouldn't have signed up if not for this thread.

+1

I prefer reading here. The articles here are usually more fun to read.

If I understand correctly, than the forums at Richie's site are only open to the members, so after a year, I will loose my access, and the postings are not accessible for me any longer.

JGF is better in this regard.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I have no intention of joining Richie's site after having watched his promo videos. It's not for me, but I'm happy if others are getting a lot out of it.

I agree with most of what you're saying in all of your post.

Incidentally, the videos weren't a strong selling point for me either. Frustrations with previous instructional material on targeting and NSJ's review (showing how this course deals with a lot of it, and on guitar, specifically) were my motivators. Don't know that I want to play like Richie, generally speaking, but I want to be able to use the tools which are laid out so well in his book. It's good basic stuff which is covered in most jazz methods , just more methodically and systematically here.

[destinytot]

It's good basic stuff which is covered in most jazz methods , just more methodically and systematically here.

+1

Personally, I like the pace of Richie's delivery. I need the message needs to come by land, sea, and air - and sometimes with subtitles (for the hard of thinking) in order to get it. Boy, do I get it now.

And I love his explanation of the whys behind the fingering system (especially after getting my teeth into Tom Heany's First, Learn to Practise - thanks for the recommendation).

[wzpgsr]

Matt, I believe in the past I have read you talking about Jimmy Amadie's book on improvisation. I have the same book and although I think it was a worthwhile purchase, I think it was lacking in several areas: rhythm, practical application, etc. Richie's course seems like the perfect "workbook" for the kinds of things Amadie wrote about.

[GingerMojo]

And for a hundred bucks, how bad could it be. I think it has paid for itself so far, and I haven't unlocked all the course material yet. Having things laid out with visual aids as well as the book, its a great value for the content. I don't want to play like Richie either but its great theory and great practice. I will most definitely take something out of it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Matt, I believe in the past I have read you talking about Jimmy Amadie's book on improvisation. I have the same book and although I think it was a worthwhile purchase, I think it was lacking in several areas: rhythm, practical application, etc. Richie's course seems like the perfect "workbook" for the kinds of things Amadie wrote about.

That's exactly my take. It's that method that really caused me to go back to the drawing board with fingerings and really look at everything, trying to find something that works more for every kind of application. I decided to really dig in with Reg's 7 fingerings, which are basically William Leavitt , and in keeping with Leavitt's prioritization of first finger stretches over fourth finger stretches.

Reg always talks about not being able to really work on concepts without having your fundamental techniques and fretboard together. It takes a little while for those of us who are more stubborn, but eventually you figure out that he's right. To be fair, the Amadie book wouldn't be as much of a hurdle on piano or horn. It's just that on the guitar you have to get so much of a basic fingering approach together to even begin with that material.

The thing I like about Richie Zellon is that at least he's addressing the fundamentals in the beginning, the technical skills needed to approach the concepts. Honestly, that Amadie book did so much to develop my ear and understanding of tension and release etc. Really helped bring together everything else I had learned. I think Richie's material is probably even better.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There is a definite value for knowing every inversion of every arpeggio, chord, scale,etc.. possible, and truthfully if you want to be a great jazz player, you need to know 90% of them. However, if you're at the point where you are struggling to get through the changes of Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, Out of Nowhere, GDS. etc... Learning all that stuff won't help much. If you're not applying what you're learning each lesson into tunes, there are other things you should be working on.

There's a foundational introduction into seven positions, but when you get into the meat of it, it's really just a few positions at a time. In the beginning the focus is blues, kind of common practice with a lot of other jazz methods I've seen. Not really designed as an all-encompassing method.

The concern for not applying concepts and techniques to actual tunes is very real though. You see too many get bogged down forever.

[docbop]

There's a foundational introduction into seven positions, but when you get into the meat of it, it's really just a few positions at a time. In the beginning the focus is blues, kind of common practice with a lot of other jazz methods I've seen. Not really designed as an all-encompassing method.

The concern for not applying concepts and techniques to actual tunes is very real though. You see too many get bogged down forever.

What I like about Richie's method is he's trying to get the typical guitar player coming from Dots On A Grid Rock and Blues to think about what intervals and notes they are playing. Trying to get them to think like horn player does in notes not dots. After getting them more into scale degrees and notes he goes into more regular improv class like taught for all instruments class. Going to be interesting to see where he takes this in his next series when he moves to playing Changes.

He does get a bit more into the organization and order of the finger patterns that I've seen from my time. I learned scale patterns various ways before the CAGED came along, so I've never studied any CAGED materials so don't know if they get into the organization like Richie.

[NSJ]

I find that I have been practicing some very rudimentary movements over and over again, particularly the descending line that results in a 5 fret stretch across strings 2-3-4.

The intervallic movement is basic: 5 to 2, resolving to either 3 or to 1. I even threw some chromatic movement to the final resolution . While it's not on the chart, the movement of intervals 5-4-2-3 is particularly tough, given that he wants you to stay in position more or less. Proper stretching down the neck is difficult to make that 5 fret stretch across 3 notes, so I find myself sliding or reaching for the 2. It's forcing my pinky to learn not collapse like it usually does. I think I even enjoyed it slightly or at least got a muscle strain. Most likely some soreness.

Are there some intervals people are finding more difficult????

[matt.guitarteacher]

I find that I have been practicing some very rudimentary movements over and over again, particularly the descending line that results in a 5 fret stretch across strings 2-3-4.

The intervallic movement is basic: 5 to 2, resolving to either 3 or to 1. I even threw some chromatic movement to the final resolution . While it's not on the chart, the movement of intervals 5-4-2-3 is particularly tough, given that he wants you to stay in position more or less. Proper stretching down the neck is difficult to make that 5 fret stretch across 3 notes, so I find myself sliding or reaching for the 2. It's forcing my pinky to learn not collapse like it usually does. I think I even enjoyed it slightly or at least got a muscle strain. Most likely some soreness.

Are there some intervals people are finding more difficult????

I do anything involving stretches up the neck while working it out. That's why I particularly like cycling patterns In position. I also slightly rock my thumb. Not ALL stretch . Small hands.

Bear in mind temperature this time of year . One year, I did too many reps in the winter in a cold house . Be careful.

[NSJ]

One very chromatic bebop movement is the stepwise descending dominant seventh bebop scale ( not covered in this class ) from the root down to the sixth (R-M7-m7-M6). Or in Richie's terminology 1-chromatic-b7-chromatic-6. Obviously you can resolve it by going back up A half stop or continue down a major second.

I find the stretch down to get to the last note Of this sequence (M6) doable. You really only have to slide out of position or move when the route is on the first string. (To get the major seventh or chromatic )

[vintagelove]

I find that I have been practicing some very rudimentary movements over and over again, particularly the descending line that results in a 5 fret stretch across strings 2-3-4.

The intervallic movement is basic: 5 to 2, resolving to either 3 or to 1. I even threw some chromatic movement to the final resolution . While it's not on the chart, the movement of intervals 5-4-2-3 is particularly tough, given that he wants you to stay in position more or less. Proper stretching down the neck is difficult to make that 5 fret stretch across 3 notes, so I find myself sliding or reaching for the 2. It's forcing my pinky to learn not collapse like it usually does. I think I even enjoyed it slightly or at least got a muscle strain. Most likely some soreness.

Are there some intervals people are finding more difficult????

Try this when stretching.


most folks have their thumb on the back of the neck around where the index finger is. Instead, try to have your be lined up parallel with your middle finger, this allows you to then reach back with your index, while also stretching up with your pinky..... Just sit for thirty second intervals with this hand position on the neck.

Now, you can also pivot off that middle finger to move slightly forward or backward to aid in making the stretch.

everyone should be able to play this with the proper hand position. I have 9 year old girls who can make the stretch with no issues once I show them the correct technique.


good luck!!!

[Reg]

Wow... that's a interesting statement by vintage...

Is that really true... the basic hand position. I would hope that the natural position is what Vintage suggested.

When you start playing... basically just grab your guitar and are ready to play what ever... what is your hand left hang position... where is it and where is the thumb. I mean that is one of your very basic starting references, which effect many more references.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Wow... that's a interesting statement by vintage...

Is that really true... the basic hand position. I would hope that the natural position is what Vintage suggested.

When you start playing... basically just grab your guitar and are ready to play what ever... what is your hand left hang position... where is it and where is the thumb. I mean that is one of your very basic starting references, which effect many more references.

How about the sideways thumb? :-) You have to pretend you've never played before. If you pick the thing up and plunk around with one finger for a while before you ever take a lesson, you're going to be lined up with thumb opposing the index I guess. Most beginner stuff is oriented around the first finger with very little 4th finger use. Without supervision and diligence, that thumb can easily end up in the wrong place.

But yeah, it's funny. It always comes back to "how would grasp any other object"? Basically have to teach them what "natural" is...

[MarkRhodes]

But yeah, it's funny. It always comes back to "how would grasp any other object"? Basically have to teach them what "natural" is...

In a way, we should expect this. If you hand someone a guitar they'll hold it without thought or intention (other than to drop it). But when you get serious about playing and brush up against some limitations, "holding" the guitar is not to keep it from falling but to allow you to do all the things you want to do with minimal resistance.

From another context, if someone handed me a scalpel---this has never happened before---I probably wouldn't hold it the way a surgeon does.

As for "how would [one] grasp any OTHER object?", my mother insists that I don't hold my fork right. And in her defense, I don't hold it the way most people I know hold a fork. I don't know why I hold it that way but it's certainly a habit now.

[Reg]

Yea... most hands have a natural at rest position. Which can probable be trained.

I like what most have said about Richies course. I mean he's playing better than ever.
I would say as what was said before... his use of fingerings does seem to be from blues rock direction... lots of 1st finger references, with fourth finger stretches. That usually slows technical skills down.

In the end... your going to be aware of everything you play... even what's implied by what you play.

If bebop improvisers, the innovators were still innovating... what would they be playing now.

The other aspect.... just a general comment... all aspects of play should be tied together... your bebop improv should relate to your comping and rhythmic feels. What fingerings and positions you your will influence your other skills like comping.

I'd be interested to see how some of you develop as you begin to get past the learning and technical aspects of the course.

[Paul B]

If I could get a bit of help, please...

Thought I'd give this site a try after all I'm reading here. So my beautiful wife signed me up as a Christmas gift. Just signed up. But after she paid and got the payment confirmation, she logged off the Internet instead of letting me follow the link, which I imagine was a link to complete the sign up (getting a username and password, etc). I got a payment confirmation email, but no welcome/sign up email from the site.

End of story, I don't have a username and password so I can log in.

I sent an email to Richie from the conract section on his other site, but figured I would ask for some thoughts here.
Thanks!