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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Please tell me I won't have to give up all the work I did to internalize Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings... This course sounds great but I don't wanna start all over on the fingerings and learn a different system. Must I??
    I don't even know that he's NOT using CAGED fingerings, (which is what Bruno's fingerings ARE) , but I think this frequently-voiced concern it's overblown.

    First of all, if you learn Spanish , your brain doesn't FORGET English. This is much the same.

    Second, they aren't arbitrary systems made up by guitar instructors. They are based on physics, fundamental music theory, and the way notes are actually laid out on the fretboard. So, there's a lot of overlap between the two systems. There just aren't that many ways to finger these things. If you convert CAGED fingerings to stretch-type fingerings you get basically :

    2 fingerings remain exactly the same,
    2 fingerings replace a shift with a stretch,
    and 1 fingering is pretty different.

    so, it's more like learning one new fingering, but there's overlap in all of them.

    You eventually want to know both ways anyway, And you're always going to use 90% of those caged fingerings anyway.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-06-2015 at 02:18 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Probably not, I used to have the Bruno fingerings ingrained, actually still do but I'm overriding them with this new way

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Please tell me I won't have to give up all the work I did to internalize Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings... This course sounds great but I don't wanna start all over on the fingerings and learn a different system. Must I??
    I have no idea about Bruno . But if you can do a F major scale starting on the 6th string using your 1st finger, an F major scale on the 5th string using your 2nd or 4th finger on the root, or an F major scale on the 4th string starting with your 1st finger, you should have no problems.

    Let me clarify:. When I say that everything in the module I pretty much know, that doesn't automatically translate to "easy ". For example, say you're in third position and decide you want to play the first three notes of the G minor scale and then play an F major seventh chord. I have worked really hard to almost instantly and automatically know that the F major seventh drop three inversion is right there in the third position, the one with the major third in the bass.

    I'm sure many of us already know this and Have worked on it . But that's just it: it takes a lot of work, there are no shortcuts or magic classes. but that's just it: it takes a lot of work, there are no shortcuts or magic classes .

    I agree with Matt above: this class will be useful in terms of really setting out the fingerings And finding the best practices in order to make the music more playable on the guitar. I have met so many music teachers lately were very good but have no idea what drop two and drop three voicings are. It is because they are not guitarists and don't understand that it is impossible to play conventional closed voice seventh chord inversions on the guitar.

  5. #54
    NSJ,

    Let us know he responds and gives you all the modules upfront. BTW with this new program I'm really excited about practicing again because I see changes in my playing already.
    Thx
    Ken

  6. #55

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    Thanks for diving in and giving your opinion, NSJ.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    NSJ,

    Let us know he responds and gives you all the modules upfront. BTW with this new program I'm really excited about practicing again because I see changes in my playing already.
    Thx
    Ken
    Email sent. Richie kindly let me have full access to the site to all modules and sent me an email. I think i
    l look at Module 2 tonight

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Please tell me I won't have to give up all the work I did to internalize Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings... This course sounds great but I don't wanna start all over on the fingerings and learn a different system. Must I??
    Yes, that's a good question. I won't say "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"----I'm willing and able to learn new things---but given that I already know similar things, are these fingerings THAT much more efficient / effective? A related question: do you have to re-finger much of what you already know? That seems like a tall order!

    O, one final question: if I bite for this, it will be the "bronze" ($49) deal. Anyone work with just that?

  9. #58

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    My only question is how many hours per day is reasonable practice time for a low intermediate player to stay on the monthly schedule of this course?

  10. #59
    Probably 2 hours, but as he states this equates to 4 semester course so most people will be working on well after the 1 year program is up...You can continue if you want after the 1 year is up. In addition he has an even more advanced course after this one
    Ken

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    ... if I bite for this, it will be the "bronze" ($49) deal. Anyone work with just that?
    I think the OP said one could get by with just the PDFs but I'm thinking, if he's such a great teacher, there's got to be $50 of added value in watching him execute it all and discuss/describe the rationale for all the exercises... I think I'd find it hard to stay focused on this course for a year if I never saw the teacher and only looked at paper. A month, maybe; a year, unlikely. YMMV.

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Email sent. Richie kindly let me have full access to the site to all modules and sent me an email. I think i
    l look at Module 2 tonight
    I'll be looking for your update. ;-)

    I'm probably going to have to pull the trigger on this as well. I've already got a great book that sounds very similar which is in standard notation. Begins with blues, basic approaches and enclosures, progressively adds more chromaticism. Anyway, every time I work with it, I wonder if someone hasn't already done all the "working out" of how it is best executed specifically on guitar.

    I'm probably going to have to check this out just to satisfy my curiosity re. someone else's approach.

  13. #62
    One last thing , the thing that really appeals to me about his approach is that he's focusing on chromatic enclosures pretty early and begins with blues. This is what other instruments do in their methodology from what I'm seen. I think this is just so basic to really playing jazz as opposed to other styles .

    All these other guitar methods start with the major scale, and I guess that's cool. You need to know fundamental theory etc. I hear Mr. B and others on the forum say to beginners that if you really want the good stuff work the arpeggios, and I agree completely.

    In my opinion, there's an order of magnitude difference in your playing as a beginner when you're playing chord tones as opposed to scales. In the same way, I honestly believe that chromatic enclosures are to arpeggios what arpeggios are to scales.

    And honestly, on the guitar you just don't need to know years worth of theory, arpeggios, and scales to play some of them. We've got all of the difficulties that come with our pattern-based instrument , why not have some of the benefits as well? I'll be interested to see how this guy lays things out.

  14. #63
    Just a quick question regarding the following statement on Richie’s site: “If you currently lack the skills or time to complete the course during the 9 month period, all the relevant material to continue at your own leisure is downloadable!” It implies the training or streaming videos as well, but are they downloadable at the same time they become available for streaming?

  15. #64
    Yes I would join where you get all the videos and PDF"S it's well worth the money !!!!

  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Yes I would join where you get all the videos and PDF"S it's well worth the money !!!!
    Thank you 007! Gold option then. Is there a single zip video file to download for each module or several separate ones?

  17. #66
    Each module has it's own page with all the videos for that module and associated pdf's.There's also a download page where page where you will download audio files of Etudes and Rhythm labs

  18. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Each module has it's own page with all the videos for that module and associated pdf's.There's also a download page where page where you will download audio files of Etudes and Rhythm labs
    Let me rephrase the question. I know the support materials including the PDFs are downloadable, but are the vids downloadable or are they just viewable online?

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I'll be looking for your update. ;-)

    I'm probably going to have to pull the trigger on this as well. I've already got a great book that sounds very similar which is in standard notation. Begins with blues, basic approaches and enclosures, progressively adds more chromaticism. Anyway, every time I work with it, I wonder if someone hasn't already done all the "working out" of how it is best executed specifically on guitar.

    I'm probably going to have to check this out just to satisfy my curiosity re. someone else's approach.
    At first glance, just perusing merely first set of 12 page exercises that deal strictly with calisthenics, I can't recommend this course more highly. The first exercise set deal strictly with not chromatics, but neighbors-upper and lower, both within the framework of ascending and descending arpeggios, from the first string to the six string and vice versa . Every combination and permutation seems to be accounted for with regard to practicing upper and lower neighbors ( from the highest chord tone on the 6th string to the lowest possible chord tone on the 1st string, limited only by the fingering)--ascending arpeggios, descending arpeggios, targeting two chord tones at a time (with each permeatation possible -b7 and 3, 1 and 5, 3 and 5, 1 and b7, b7 and 5), with each permeation of upper and lower neighbor approach ( both upper, both lower, first upper, 2nd upper, 1st lower, 2nd upper). A set of 36 exercises multiplied by three, with each exercise practiced on three separate fingerings, with each fingering correlating to the I7, IV7 or V7. So, in total 108 exercises targeting upper and lower neighbors for each chord tone of an arpeggio, both ascending and decending, with meticulous attention to fingerings on the guitar, through two octave registers.

    With a very specific initial methodology and sequence to practice each exercise, leaving nothing to chance, such that it becomes ingrained completely: the fingering and ear training

    1. Identify each note of the arpeggio from the highest to the lowest, from the first string to the six string, identifying each chord tone. Do not move on until you can do this easily .
    2. Identify the target notes within the given pattern above from the larger arpeggio (here, the two chord tones to be targeted via upper and lower neighbors).
    3. Play the target notes with the approach tones (here, a 3 note sequence target note-upper or lower neighbor--back to the target note)
    4. Play the full exercise by adding the remaining arpeggio notes (the untargeted chord tones ) to the target notes and approach tones.

    This is about is extremely rigorous and meticulous as I have ever seen this material . He expects you to spend two weeks doing these 108 exercises ( 36 studies or patterns dealing strictly with upper or lower neighbors multiplied by three fingerings for each pattern ).

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Another thing that is attractive to me is that he starts out with the Blues.

    I was working on Herb Ellis' Swing Blues but I kept wanting to play notes that were not the particular shape. It is a bit deflating when you want to play what is in your head but your hands are tied because you are supposed to be working with the particular shape. What if I want to slide up and go higher.

    I just do/did not have the discipline to keep working in the little boxes or clusters that I am given in my various Jazz instructional materials.

    Also, I think you may have misunderstood Herb. The shapes are just that, shapes. Visual references. But if you look at the lines he plays in "Blues In C" he's playing more notes than are in those shapes. The shapes are not a prison; they are a frame of reference, a "handy" way to orient yourself wherever you happen to be on the neck. Learning Herb's solos is a good dose of "jazz language"! ;o)

  21. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    At first glance, just perusing merely first set of 12 page exercises that deal strictly with calisthenics, I can't recommend this course more highly.
    Thanks so much. I'll be getting into this by next week as well.

    Out of curiosity, does he correlate these exercises to specific chord voicings up the neck etc? Are voicings integrated into some of the exercises or etudes?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-07-2015 at 09:10 AM.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Thanks so much. I'll be getting into this by next week as well.

    Out of curiosity, does he correlate these exercises to specific chord voicings up the neck etc? Are voicings integrated into some of the exercises or etudes?
    The intro exercises are straight forward arpeggios associated with I7 -IV7-V7 (blues). Each chord has an associated fingering . If I see something more advanced, I'll let you know .

    The important thing is to Find all the arpeggiated chord tones ( at this .135b7, not extensions ) within the framework of what you can get by the specific fingering, while maintaining position -fingering. Say you are starting a C7 arpeggio on the sixth string with the first finger. You should get down to the M3 on the first string, 12th fret. Of course, ascending and Descending.
    It seems to me that stretching with the fourth finger up the neck is far more useful than stretching back with the first finger down the neck . Especially at faster tempos.

    The focus initially seems to be on targeting chord tones in every conceivable way while maintaining the fingering across the neck in two octaves . Let me clarify a bit: if you are playing-targeting chord tones of a F7 arpeggio on the fifth string with the first finger, you should still start on the sixth string and play the P5 and b7 contained there, because the fingering allows it. Thus, in such instance, the range of the arpeggio should be P5 on string 6 to b7 on string 1. Playing the arpeggio either ascending or descedning means starting on the first or sixth string, with the lowest or highest notes you can find in the arpeggio as permitted by the fingering .
    Last edited by NSJ; 11-07-2015 at 10:10 AM.

  23. #72
    NSJ,

    Would it be fair to say so far you really like what you see? And did he open up Module 2 for you as well?
    Module 2 has double the amount of information in it..He states he had to that to get us what we need to move forward... I guess since its a year program,
    Ken
    Last edited by guitarplayer007; 11-07-2015 at 11:06 AM.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    NSJ,

    Would it be fair to say so far you really like what you see? And did he open up Module 2 for as well?
    Module 2 has double the amount of information in it..He sates he had to that to get us what we need to move forward... I guess since its a year program,
    Ken
    Yes I have full access to everything now. I'm going to stay with this for about an hour a day. I put in two hours last night. I have greater priorities which is working on tunes with the big band and also with a singer .

    I'm also playing with the pick again after playing finger style for a few years, so this will help with that as well. pick Technique very rusty .

  25. #74
    I asked Richie if we were actually suppose to memorize these Bebop Calisthenics patterns and he said NO, just keep playing them so the different sounds get into your ear....I'm still working on bebop Calisthenics from Module 2 and now starting bebop Cal in module 3...I think these exercises are something we will be doing for a longgggggggggg time But I love the sound of them...It's like he says it's the grammar of bebop.
    Ken
    Last edited by guitarplayer007; 11-07-2015 at 11:21 AM.

  26. #75
    So all 9 modules have been delivered?

  27. #76

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    I would love to take a look at some of the bebop calisthenics. If a member would like to do a little trading, I have some great bebop lessons I could share. Message me if you're interested.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Also, I think you may have misunderstood Herb. The shapes are just that, shapes. Visual references. But if you look at the lines he plays in "Blues In C" he's playing more notes than are in those shapes. The shapes are not a prison; they are a frame of reference, a "handy" way to orient yourself wherever you happen to be on the neck. Learning Herb's solos is a good dose of "jazz language"! ;o)
    I need to clarify my thoughts. Herb's book features different shapes in the same position. Not only scales and arpeggios but also the chromatic scale. So that means all the notes within reach are available.

    Where I may have erred is that I would practice each shape by itself, trying to improvise off it with target notes and approach notes. I can't see how one can practice all the shapes at once so in my mind, every course that uses shapes requires a period of limiting oneself to the notes in the shapes pool.

    The Herb Ellis books starts out with the chord shape and then builds other shapes and patterns off it. But I am not sure how you could internalize each shape without some extended practice limiting oneself to just that pattern/shape.

    Am I off-base?

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I need to clarify my thoughts. Herb's book features different shapes in the same position. Not only scales and arpeggios but also the chromatic scale. So that means all the notes within reach are available.

    Where I may have erred is that I would practice each shape by itself, trying to improvise off it with target notes and approach notes. I can't see how one can practice all the shapes at once so in my mind, every course that uses shapes requires a period of limiting oneself to the notes in the shapes pool.

    The Herb Ellis books starts out with the chord shape and then builds other shapes and patterns off it. But I am not sure how you could internalize each shape without some extended practice limiting oneself to just that pattern/shape.

    Am I off-base?
    Like mark says, think of the shapes as a framework and learn the arpeggios and scales around them, they are a great frame of reference, I've not looked at this course yet but I learned how to play in this fashion, one thing that I found was once you learn a lot of M7b5 voicings they can be used in COUNTLESS ways as m7b5, as Dom7/9 both as non altered or as a b5 sub, or as minor sixth chords.

    When you then add the 11 instead of the 3rd you get some AMAZING stuff which fits beautifully around the melodic minor.

    Voice this (from bottom up) Ab C D G and see if you can think of a few chords it could be.

    Fmin9
    Bb13
    E7#9
    Dm11b5
    Gsus b9
    F melodic minor screams out in this shape.

    Voice it up the neck in as many ways as you can and look at where you can grab notes from F melodic minor.

    Then harmonise a tune using it in all the above ways.

    I can put a video up if this helps.

    Last edited by 55bar; 11-07-2015 at 03:29 PM.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    The Herb Ellis books starts out with the chord shape and then builds other shapes and patterns off it. But I am not sure how you could internalize each shape without some extended practice limiting oneself to just that pattern/shape.

    Am I off-base?
    I think you're supposed to spend a day or so with the shapes to get used to them, then learn the lines, and while playing the lines visualize the shapes. That's why Herb wants you to learn his solos before making up your own. You're getting solid lines under your fingers and also learning how to move them around the fretboard.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Like mark says, think of the shapes as a framework and learn the arpeggios and scales around them, they are a great frame of reference, I've not looked at this course yet but I learned how to play in this fashion, one thing that I found was once you learn a lot of M7b5 voicings they can be used in COUNTLESS ways as m7b5, as Dom7/9 both as non altered or as a b5 sub, or as minor sixth chords.

    When you then add the 11 instead of the 3rd you get some AMAZING stuff which fits beautifully around the melodic minor.


    I can put a video up if this helps.

    Please do! I think it would help me.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Please do! I think it would help me.
    I should maybe start a new thread?

  33. #82
    Exchanged emails with Richie. The videos are not downloadable. However, the PDFs and MP3s are transcriptions of the videos and this is what’s meant for use when practicing. The videos just demonstrate some of the information, but once they’re watched and reviewed with the PDF books throughout the year, they won’t be needed. I asked for full access to all the modules at once, no problem there. I’ll be enrolling after the weekend.

  34. #83
    Ok. I just saw that you get the mp3's with the silver version, and I went ahead and purchased this. One benefit to the silver version, if you're more intermediate in knowledge etc., is that you can just print the whole thing as a pdf immediately. I've got 325 hot pages going in a binder tonight, and I have an 8 hr. car ride tomorrow. (I'm hearing a Blues Brothers reference there somewhere.) So I'll be looking at it. I think this just looks really solid.

    Maybe like what Alan Kingstone is for guitarists approaching Barry Harris harmonic concepts, this looks like it's pretty comparable to Jimmy Amadie's book on improv for all instruments, but organized specifically for guitar and with much, much more in the way of etudes and examples etc.

    I just think the organization of fingering protocols specific to guitarists is such a crucial thing. If only for its value as a reference from which to build an organizational framework for studying other texts, transcribing etc., I'd think it's probably worth it, but it also appears to be a very systematic methodology as well.

    I'm going out of town for a week, but I'll update as I can.

  35. #84

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    I signed up for the middle tier yesterday. I went through the first ten videos rather quickly as those concepts were already pretty familiar or easily digestible. Last night I ran the pattern 1 mixolydian and dom 7 arpeggio through the cycle for 30 minutes or so. I like Richie's entreaty to learn these fingerings from the highest pitch down, as I've not spent too much time on this.

  36. #85
    I see many people are digging this site, that's so cool...Like I said when I first stumbled on to it . It's the most thought out and logical program I have see online. Maybe if any has different ideas for practicing the material we can put them here.
    Ken

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    I should maybe start a new thread?
    Well, you could, but if you want everyone who is already here to see it, this may be the place to post it first. (You can always make a separate thread later.)

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I see many people are digging this site, that's so cool...Like I said when I first stumbled on to it . It's the most thought out and logical program I have see online. Maybe if any has different ideas for practicing the material we can put them here.
    Ken
    I'm glad so many are enthused. As for me, I'm going to wait until the New Year before biting. I want to end this year going over things that troubled me when my picking was iffy; now that it's solid, I want to nail down the stuff I never got quite right and also learn several new pieces---mostly longish jump / swing / rhythm changes solos. When that's all done, I'll be prepared to take on a new approach like Richie's. If everyone who is raving about it now is still raving about it then, I'll join the club!

  39. #88

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    Richie seems to be equating the middle finger with the ring finger. I've always thought that the middle finger is next to the index and the ring finger is next to the pinky. But in his description of the patterns he says "Middle (ring*) finger". I'm assuming that he means to start the position with the middle (next to the index). Can anyone clarify or validate this? I've been working on another course but have been thinking of switching over in this early stage.

  40. #89

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    Oh, I see. Use the middle unless the second note in the scale is a half step -- then start with the ring in that pattern.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffsct
    Richie seems to be equating the middle finger with the ring finger. I've always thought that the middle finger is next to the index and the ring finger is next to the pinky. But in his description of the patterns he says "Middle (ring*) finger". I'm assuming that he means to start the position with the middle (next to the index). Can anyone clarify or validate this? I've been working on another course but have been thinking of switching over in this early stage.

    The ring finger is next to the pinky. If the thumb is one (-the first finger), the ring finger is four (-and the pinky five.) The middle finger is the third one---next to the index on one side and ring finger on the other.

    This used to confuse me so I looked it up and made a note of it.

    PINKY----RING----MIDDLE----INDEX----THUMB

  42. #91
    Yes plus you can watch him,,,this is basic stuff

  43. #92

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    I'm very curious to find out, as I go further in this course, how he treats 2nds, 4ths and 6ths (passing tones ) vs 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (chord tone extensions subject to chromatic and neighbor embellishment in the same manner as chord tones ), as far as their respective places on the guitar are concerned. Assuming we have sixth and fifth string roots, I presume the 2nds, 4ths and 6ths on the 6th, 5th and 4th strings Will be considered like passing tones, while the 9ths. 11th and 13 upper extensions on the 3rd , 2nd and 1st strings Will be treated as Chord tones subject to embellishment

  44. #93
    It should be exciting!!!! My 4 module opens Friday but still really working on Modules 2 and 3...2 has so much info

  45. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I'm very curious to find out, as I go further in this course, how he treats 2nds, 4ths and 6ths (passing tones ) vs 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (chord tone extensions subject to chromatic and neighbor embellishment in the same manner as chord tones ), as far as their respective places on the guitar are concerned. Assuming we have sixth and fifth string roots, I presume the 2nds, 4ths and 6ths on the 6th, 5th and 4th strings Will be considered like passing tones, while the 9ths. 11th and 13 upper extensions on the 3rd , 2nd and 1st strings Will be treated as Chord tones subject to embellishment
    Have to look at it tonight. I'm pretty sure this is specifically addressed as a lesson/concept.

  46. #95
    Working on Bebop Calisthenics #2...starting to get a little more complex
    Ken

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Have to look at it tonight. I'm pretty sure this is specifically addressed as a lesson/concept.
    Ok I looked ahead, Module 4, lesson 1. "upper extensions below middle C should be avoided"

  48. #97

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    Yay, another attempt to make jazz a college course.

  49. #98
    I don't think he's making it a college course, but is providing a way of learning concepts that are used in Jazz improv in a logical order and building on each concept that is learned.
    Ken

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yay, another attempt to make jazz a college course.
    Yeah well, if that is the purpose, ihe is very late to the game . As has been discussed ad nauseum in very small circles, the era of the territory bands and apprentice systems has been over for about 60 years .

    Personally speaking, I don't subscribe generally to these sort of things , but I have found that his and Sheryl Bailey's perspectives on bebop to be very interesting. But both can be perceived as academic and austere, from the perspective of an old timer who came up under the apprentice system .

    That doesn't include Metheny, Rosenwinkel and Scofitld --: they went to Berkelee .

    On an unrelated note, do a Google search on "Phil Lesh and friends, Port Chester, November 5 sixth and seventh 2015, Soundcloud radio broadcast ". I think he will dig it .

  51. #100
    Got the first full look at it today. Wow…, this is more comprehensive than I could ever imagine and it’s only Vol.1. Curious to find out when Vol.2 will be released.