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Licks, lines, patterns, devices.... we all have 'em, and to one extent or another, we all use them. But we've all discovered that some ideas don't always transfer well. For example, if you lift a line from a blues from the IV7, it may or may not work as a Dominant idea in another position, eg: I7, V7, II7, bVII7 etc.
Yup, it's all about context, if you used nothing but transposed ideas for, say, all your Dominant chords, it sounds contrived or "canned". The greats don't do that, so how do we mere mortals, break away from using the same ideas everywhere? If we consider just the Dominant class of ideas, I suppose you could group you're ideas for specific contexts, ie, where the Dom chord appears as either I7, II7, III7, IV7, V7, VI7, bVII7, not to mention the other 5 non diatonic degrees. But I've never seen an article, or lesson, or book that divides lines into contextually specific chords.
So, does anyone want to start a discussion about this? To get the ball rolling, I'll cite an example that got me thinking about this: I7 to bVII7 . Say G7 to F7. Use of the b3rd (of G) against the F7 sounds VERY different compared to the b3rd against the G7. The reason is that the key centre feels like G7, and going to F7 lends itself to G blues usage (just as Bb7 does in a blues context). Of course, "A" blues against the G7 doesn't really work the same way in the same context, and from all this you'd conclude that the pull of the tonal centre dictates how non chord tones either work, or don't.
Obvious stuff to many of you, regardless, as I say in the title, I've found no mention of this commonly confronted issue. I guess kinds of "generalizing" (blues scales etc) need to be taken into account where the important relationship is the one between the played note and the actual general key tonic note (of the group of chords) as opposed to the played note versus the tonic of the chord of the moment. The Bb note against the F7, although it's a 4th, sounds great because you still feel it as the bluesy b3rd of G7, which is the centre of tonal gravity in that particular context.
Maybe it'd be good to know how you all organise your material. In the above example, too keep the discussion simple, would you use transferable "modular" material, like you would if you practiced modulating single ideas around the circle of 5ths (ie weigh your notes against the chord tonic?) Or do you weigh your notes against an implied key tonic?Last edited by princeplanet; 08-17-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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08-17-2015 10:02 AM
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In the case of G7 to F7, I would consider using the Ab major scale. It contains all the tensions and some of the chord tones for G7 and it contains the F blues scale with embellishments. I often use the major scale a minor third above a dominant chord, borrowing from the harmonica player's notion of plying in "cross keys." You can also use the major scale 1 step below the dominant, which creates a bluesy feel by presenting a Dorian sound against the dominant and you can use the major scale 2 whole steps below the dominant, which introduces a Phrygian sound.
I do this because I find the 12 bar blues to be an utterly boring song form to play or to listen to, and this approach at least doesn't sound like wanking away on the blues scale. I used to be a huge blues fan, not sure what happened. The only blues I can listen to these days is the Piedmont style, the Reverend, etc.
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Interesting choices there, would be good to hear them in action, I tried them briefly and nothing grabbed me, but it's all in the handling I guess... As for your dislike of the blues, I'm sure you're aware that borrowing notes from a blues scale doesn't necessarily have much in common with the Blues as a 12 bar form. Regardless, my question was trying to explore the idea of the specific use of material in certain contexts. Your idea of Ab major covering both chords (G7 and F7) would obviously yield ideas that probably wouldn't work for Doms in other contexts, so that's an interesting answer, cheers.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
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cunamara..nice take..Finding different ways to play against ONE chord is a time tested technique to discover how to get some "outside" sounds to sound "in" ..in exploring this further..one may study symmetric harmony..diminished and augmented theory..and begin to see a series of chords as ONE chord (G7 Bb7 Db7 E7-note the tri-tones) ripping apart the diminished scale you will find quite a few chords Maj Min Doms and altered doms-7b5 7#9 7b9 and many scale fragments that may imply other chords .. using this material together with diatonic harmony principles..and standard chord relationships (ii7 V7 etc) you begin to discover the freedom of the chromatic pallet of tones..without the restrictions of "avoid" notes..you begin to think in several keys at the same time..and at some point-there are no keys-!
I agree a standard 12bar blues can be boring-though to me, Albert King gave it a kick in the ass..In making the progression a jazz/blues..playing over the key center now takes you on a very different journey..
From G7 C7 D7 to G7 Bb7 Eb7 C7 F7 D7 - thanks to Parker and company..playing over this you can begin in Bb7 circle around and ii7 V7 your way back to G7 .. or go chromatic Bb7 B7 E7 Eb7 Ab7 G7 or symmetric Bb7 Db7 E7 Eb7 Ab7 B7 E7 Db7 G7...
now you can be very inventive with the approach to these chords your creativity is your limit..study what Mingus did with "goodbye pork pie hat" .. it has the flavor of a gospel/New Orleans funeral march..yet it is in a 12bar format..hardly a boring blues..
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Would like to restrict the discussion, if I may, to why a Dom7 lick may not work over another Dom7 depending on it's context.. Most of us know to handle resolving Dominants differently to non resolving, but that almost implies there's only 2 different relationships to be aware of. I say there's 11 !
Consider the following Vamps :
17 - bII7
17 - II7
17 - bIII7
17 - III7
17 - IV7
17 - bV7
( 17 - V7 )
17 - bVI7
17 - VI7
17 - bVII7
17 - VII7
For each 2 chord vamp you could negotiate each chord successfully by playing a transposed lick or idea that only references a simple mixolydian based pitch collection for each chord. But, in the same way that the V7 can handle all available tensions beyond the plain mixo notes, every other Dom7 will have it's own specific tensions when weighed against the gravitational pull of the I7.
I know that some players will simply sum together the 2 diff mixo scales from each chord in one of the above pairs, and in doing so create unique lines that might only work for that particular pair of Dom 7ths. Another way may be to simply look at the 2 chords and hear an implied 3rd tonality (hearing 17 to II7 as IV7 to V7). Or you might just "hear" something that works against the 2nd Dom7 chord without a neat explanation as per why it works.
Either way, these kinds of approaches are very different from what many of us do when we've trained ourselves to transpose lines through the circle, ie, use the same idea whether we see a Dom7 as a V, bIII, Vi or whatever. I suppose I'm trying to say that it's not just differentiating Functional Doms from Non Functional Doms, but differentiating, - if we wish to - every single possible Dom7 when considering it's relationship to a Dom7 preceeding or following.
Of course, you could say the same for Maj, Min, Aug, Dim etc chords as well, but I'm happy to restrict the discussion to Dom chords, else my head may explode
....
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I like this thread. Here's one I "discovered" on Lady Bird while singing it solfege (to get it in my ear). That IV to bVII in the first 4 bars, a ii-V doesn't do it justice. Instead of thinking of that Fm to Bb7 in Eb major, think of it in C natual minor or C harmonic minor (to grab that b9 off the Bb7, mmm). That way, your c major line moves fluidly (ew?) to a cminor line. Of course, you outline the Fm7 to Bb7, but your point of reference is the Cm. Before a smart alleck tells me, I know Cm is the relative minor of Eb major. But your line will realize itself quite differently, try it.
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By the way, Bruce Arnold has a whole course on secondary dominants. That IIdom to one is an interesting sound, try a lydian off the one on the IIdom. Example: D7 to Cmaj6, play c lydian and outline the D7 then outline the C6. Listen before you force theory on a progression, you might find some cool combinations that way. Don't throw theory out the window, but don't forget those two freaky things on the sides of your head as well (you need em to play music, unless you can sense the vibrations of notes another way--like Beethoven?)
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Great topic, princeplanet, and one that I have thought about lately in my guitar playing. Irez hit on some of my thoughts on the topic.
Briefly, I was thinking about capturing the sound and spirit of a particular chord progression by regurgitating in some way, what you have already heard and loved as opposed to using theory to throw some lines on top of a progression.
I am more and more starting to understand just how important it is to listen and emulate as opposed to letting the science of music theory have the larger role in constructing a line, and plugging it into different progressions without thought of the history that progression my represent. (Several of the advanced players have warned about this, and I can see what they are saying now.)
But I don't want to hijack or divert the thread so let me stop here. I will be monitoring future posts in this thread.
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Not being too familiar with the tune, I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, but the IV7 to bVII7 just cries out "blues scale" to me Originally Posted by Irez87
Probably because it's a common Rock thing, but yeah, slipping in blues notes is just another way to dip temporarily into the parallel minor. Interestingly, those 2 chords are a 5th apart and you could come up with lines that sound great over them that will not work if transposed up a tone to negotiate the V7 - I7 . Which perfectly sums up what I'm clumsily trying to get at here, that relationships are heard as contextual.
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Yeah, I've been shedding lines around the circle, and although i feel its important, I wonder if it's just training myself to insert modular ideas in places I could be trying harder to come up with something else that I might intuitively "hear" instead. Maybe it's about trying to find a balance.... Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Of course, with the vamps below, I'm assuming you're hearing the I7 as the tonal centre, but you may not. And further, if you threw in just one more chord to the mix, it may change the implied relationships entirely. But for the sake of this discussion, if someone paid you to come up with a "lick" book for each of the vamps below, I bet some of those licks, (when split in half so that each half pertained to just one Dom 7 chord), would not transfer well to other Dom7 usage. Again the common example is the IV7 in blues- if you try to use some lines that work against that chord in that position against say a II7, chances are it won't work. Most of us learn Dom material as though every Dom is a V7, or at least a secondary Dom (V7 in another implied key), but very often in Jazz I come across non resolving Doms and depending on context, they seem to almost always deserve special and individual attention, as opposed to plugging in a pre fab V7 line. It can be a real test for what your ear "hears".... maybe ....
17 - bII7
17 - II7
17 - bIII7
17 - III7
17 - IV7
17 - bV7
( 17 - V7 )
17 - bVI7
17 - VI7
17 - bVII7
17 - VII7
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Fair point. E.g. I always think the altered scale sounds good on some dominants, but not on others. Some chords (II7, I7, IV7) really like the lydian dominant - others like mode V of the harmonic minor (VI7, III7, VII7). Some (V7, III7, VII7),but not all, like the altered scale too Originally Posted by princeplanet
Dominant chords function within a key. It's not all the same. Context is everything.
The Roni Ben Hurr/Barry Harris stuff is good on this. But you should use your ears. Maybe other people prefer different sounds. My therapist says I should be OK with that ;-)
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That's the most helpful and succinct information I've read on the matter. Thanks! And yeah, training, then trusting my ears... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Thanks! YMMV of course.... Originally Posted by princeplanet
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not sure if this is thinking along with you or presenting something a bit different:
you can play D7 with A in bass (you might prefer to think of this as Am6) over Cmaj7. in fact you should!
but you can't play G7 over Cmaj7 (unless you're using it as a harmonic hinge or pivot to get some distance on the Cmaj7 - but that's different)
G7 in Cmaj is really Dm6 (barry harris) - and Cmaj7 in Cmaj is really Am6 (that's more of a push but its v. close). so a 2-5-1 in Cmaj is really G7 to D7 (for god's sake!). so those two dominants are doing very different work in the same key.
this is all barry harris
the idea here is that these two dominants stand in very different relations to the 1 and so need to be handled differently. e.g. the #7 tone is going to sound v. different with the Am6(D7) than with the Dm6(G7)...
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It's because the F (natural 4th) is the hinge on which tonal music works. It is not part of the natural overtone series of the C chord (unlike the F# which is, especially pronounced if you play a maj7..) Originally Posted by Groyniad
The Lydian is static, while the Ionian mode (Major) has a natural sense of instability. This might make it troublesome for chord scale theory based playing over existing chords (hence the term 'avoid note'), but it makes it extremely useful for the creation of moving chord progressions such as ii-V-I.
In this sense, a ii-V-I can be thought of as a chordal expression of the melodic cadence 4-3. 7-1 is in there too (but less important in jazz.) Chromatic alterations often associated with the altered scale on V7 - b3, b7, b2 and most importantly b6, add to this sense of resolution.
If you play IV-I over the ii-V-I the result sounds sophisticated. Add in the chromatics and you have a rich palette of resolutions.
In contrast, too much V7-I, except in the right structural places can sound a bit heavy and basic. 5-7-1 type phrases are kind of like a full stop (period) in the bebop language.
These cadences are encoded within the Barry Harris style major dim6 and dominant scale patterns we Barry-ites practice.
I'm not sure if I have heard Barry Harris refer much to Am6/C or D7/C style harmonies, but I would love to be corrected, and would be interested to know what he would say about it. The BH approach as I understand it is basically one octave harmonic theory, like classical harmony - 'playing music within the seventh' as Warne Marsh put it (not referring to Barry). That's not to say it is anything other than brilliant, but there are more options.
For example, in terms of the F# (#4) voicing is important. For me the F# has a very different effect depending which octave it is placed in - whether it is a #4 or a #11 basically (BH rejects compound interval nomenclature, which is telling). If it is in the same octave as the tonic chord (for example playing an F# a step above the E in a voicing) the effect is profoundly different to the same notes but with the F# raised an octave.
Compare the following D/C chords, for example - x3423x and x3x232
Warne Marsh's two octave scale encapsulates these extended notes. In fact he shows it is possible to voice a C# on top of a two octave Lydian structure:
C E G B D F# A C#
Try it on the piano!
To those who got to the end of this - thanks for reading ;-)Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2015 at 01:03 PM.
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no - that's just great man - just great - but i didn't get all of it. i'd like a bit more help with the bit where you say that bh is like classical harmony ('within the 7th'). i particularly liked what you said about the contrast between iv - iii and v - i.
let me just say a bit about the way i'm working with barry harris stuff.
i'm working with two sounds primarily. these two sounds - and the diminished passing sounds holding them together (or keeping them apart) - i'm thinking - will give me all the sounds i need if i work them properly.
one, i think of as a min6 sound, the other as a maj 6th. i'm mesmerized by these sounds - can't get away from them - but i'm not entirely sure quite what i'm doing with them, or exactly how they apply to/interact in the music.
if i'm in C i think of the maj 6 sound as Cmaj/Am; and i think of the min6th sound as Dmin6/G7. the next two most obviously important applications of these sounds in the tonality would be the min6th sound as an Abmin6 and as an Fm6; and the maj 6th sound as an F maj (#11 or b5...) or Dm. the Min6th sound is also present in the tonality as the min7flat5 sound on the flat five of the home scale (which is a min6th sound with its 6th in the bass)
(won't it be true that each of the applications of the min6th sound in the tonality will consist - looked at in one way - as a series of dominants (dm6=G7; Abm6=Db7; Fm6= G7alt?; F# (=Am6 with 6th in bass which = D7) - and each one of these will work/sound differently in the music?)
i think i'm extending the maj6 and min6 sounds by building triads on their primary notes (1,3,5,6)- and this starts to take you 'beyond the 7th'. Most of the phrases i'm playing will find an application over multiple chords - but each chord makes the phrase sound significantly different. e.g. a phrase voiced with a Cmaj7 will be transformed if voiced with an Am6 or F maj7#11. (is this the opposite of the phenomenon you're alerting us to - or the same?)
if you got to the end of this - thanks for reading!
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Okay, Reg has a much cooler voice (I bet that's why he plays so well, right?)
But here is the idea I posted earlier:
Breakdown (since I still have to warm up my teaching voice, Bueller?)
1. C Ionian
2. C Natural Minor -- Fm7 to Bb7 (throw in a B natural for that b9)
3. C Ionian
4. C Locrian -- Bbm7 to Eb7 (I threw in some diminished notes, I blame Barry Harris)
5. C lydian (I threw in a b6 because it sounded right in the moment) D7
6. C Ionian
7. Tadd Dameron turn back
...and this is how Barry told us the changes (correct me if I'm wrong, Hep)
1. C maj up and down (up to 7 and down)
2. Bb mixolydian up and down
3. C maj up and down
4. E mixolydian up (this is a hip sub I never thought of) one measure
5. Eb mixo up one measure
6. D mixo up and down
7. C maj up and down
8. Tadd Dameron turn back
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Edit: C locrian is suppose to be C phrygian ... too many Greek names. It's C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C*
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The min6 is quite simply the best sound IMHO. It's a gateway to all sorts of things. What you have described is pretty much the way I approach things in terms of my swing playing. Charlie Christian is kind of like the Rosetta Stone of m6 applications.... Originally Posted by Groyniad
In my bebop playing I've moved back more towards using the straight (mixolydian) dominant ATM and trying to throughly explore that before moving on again to the minor (melodic) harmony. BH has some good stuff on this.
In terms of building triads or seventh chords on the chord tones - we do this in the BH system for dominant chords, e.g. on G7:
G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fmaj7
All these chords have the same basic function in the sense that they need resolution to the tonic in a tonal environment.
Now on major and minor we enter some difficulties with this because some of our chords are going to include the 4th, which creates chords that are not tonic in function, for example in C maj 7
Cmaj7 Em7 G7 Bm7b5 (for C6 we get Am7 as the last chord)
That can work Ok for running lines, but we lose some of the ease of application we have with doms 7- you need to be aware of how you resolve these chords etc.
In terms of the eight note maj6 - diminished scales etc, we have a closed system - the chords keep repeating in a orderly pattern, tonic, dominant, tonic etc. So if we build the chords on the chord tones of the basic chord, we simply get inversions , because of the extra note, if that makes any sense. E.g. C major 6 - diminished:
C D E F G G#/Ab A B C
Missing out a note each time we have
C E G A
D F G# B
E G A C
F G# B D
etc
This is what I mean by the BH system being a 1 octave system - we don't get into extensions, in fact. BH harmony doesn't have extensions per se, such as Cmaj9 etc, only notes borrowed from the dim7 a half step below, which require resolution.
In contrast, the 7 note modes are open in that you get a different chord each time
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 etc
CST theory talks about upper structures etc - this sort of thing is quite alien to BH's chordal language (as he teaches it) but emerges from his linear approach - we can see Fmaj7 as an upper structure of a G13 chord for instance, we can finish phrases on note 2 of the scale - the 9th if you like - but he doesn't see or teach it that way AFAIK.
This might be an incomplete understanding though... Happy to be corrected...
What you are suggesting - which I understand as an extension of Barry Harris's system (let me know if this comes direct from his teaching tho) is to bring the extra notes in the upper octave using the CST notes. Seems a valid thing to do...
Sorry if I've just written a load of stuff you already know BTW - it actually really helps me to consolidate my own understanding to try to explain stuff..Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2015 at 05:10 PM.
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Heaven forfend! It is the dominant scale, of course. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
surely BH didnt use the term mixo the Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7 change stems from tadd dameron's shout chorus, it's also used on half nelson.
Interesting fact about the sideslip...
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Yeah, I didn't want to further confuse people. He says dominant, like it's the dominant of all scales. Very Hegelian, no?
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Granted, even for the way I think of the tune, you still have to hear the arp's up and down. However, even when I sing them, I think C major. For instance:
Fm7 to Bb7 becomes
In C...
Fa Lay Do May (Fm7)
4 b6 1 b3
Tay Re Fa Lay (Bb7)
b7 2 4 b6
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I gotta give Stitt another chance, too much listening to people say he was a Parker clone. Got's to think for meself. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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There's also the one where you take the dominant/mixo scale a whole step below and then go up, come down, rasie the 1 of the scale and resolve to the scale target chord. For example, in C:
This gives you a minor ii-V into I, for example (think Night and Day, Dm7b5 G7b9 C.)
I forget the BH name for it, but I think of it as minor key dominant. Essentially you are playing a natural/harmonic minor scale (mode V of the harmonic on the dominant chord) but doing things in this slightly weird way actually helps come up with some lines - it's easier in some ways as you don't need to remember and sequence the harmonic minor mode into your playing - just change a note. So, you can just go down the scale, for example:
Dm7b5 G7b9 | C
G F# F E D C B A G# | F E D C B A G# F | E
For example.... These a good example of this type of run in the last few bars of Donna Lee....
David Baker details this approach in his How to Play Bebop books too.
Roni Ben Hurr makes the point that he likes to use this minor dominant on the chords in the key which would normally resolve to minor (whether they do or not.) So for VI7, VII7 and III7 we would always do I7, V7 with the raise 1 thing. So if we take All of Me:
C | % | E7 | % | A7 | % | Dm
We play
C | % | G7 | (g-g#) | C7 | (c-c#) | Dm
If that makes sense....
It's basically a interrupted cadence. Think Bach and Gospel music! Very classical, actually.
I'm into this sound now, it's very smooth, natural and melodic and comes up all the time in bebop music. It's the standard way of handling a minor ii-V as far as I can tell, and if I may be so bold, one of the big harmonic differences between pre and post CST players.
In contrast, playing a full on altered scale on these things can be a bit fussy sounding by comparison - a little goes a long way with the altered scale - it's not a natural sound to my ears, more a special effect. Altered stuff works best I think if you briefly allude to it - like the classic #2 3 #2 b2 1 b7 to the 3 of the target chord on a V7-I (Bb B Bb Ab G F E on G7 - C) think the first A of Hot House near the end. You could also, as mentioned, use the tritone minor arpeggio sounds, or use sideslip style motifs from tritone subs.
Hot House is a great tune to study for altered scale harmony BTW.
Bear in mind that this means that we are not unambiguously dealing with melodic minor/altered scale harmony BTW. I'm open to the possibility that the altered scale is a retrofitting of new theory to old music, but I just don't know.
You can also alter the IV degree to get the same effect. It's neat-o!
EDIT- Whoops I got the Dm7b5 G7 Example wrong. I will repost...Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2015 at 10:31 AM.
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